Protest And Survive / No Scapegoat
Debut release on Inferno Records run by Tempest record shop in Birmingham, next release was by Dead Wretched which is also a slab of tip top pogo punk.
This band I know hardly anything about except they reminded me of Discharge at the time of purchasing this 7″ single (except for Soldier Boy, that sounded like Dead Wretched), and the vocalist had a mohican when I caught them performing live.
All the rest of the memories are now faded into some kind of UK82 haze in my brain somewhere.
Lazy journalism at its most frustrating. Sorry about that…off to bed!
Chris
October 15, 2008 at 4:53 pmOut of interest WERE THERE really such things as ‘conspiracy theories’ back then? Certainly lots of bullshit and stuff many anarchos espoused and subscribed to which with hindsight is unmitigated nonsense (and analogies between slaughterhouses and concentration camps perhaps being the most memorable) but really not so sure about ‘conspiracy therories’ per se? Think the Stannheim RAF suicides are one of the only examples of a pre-internet age conspiracy theory? I’m only really aware of all that side of things coming along with the Psychic TV/TOPY scene and Mark Stewart/Tom Vague type illuminati influenced stuff towards the mid ’80s.
andus
October 15, 2008 at 5:14 pmI’ve had it with this website. I am not gonna put up with being ridiculed.
Sam
October 15, 2008 at 5:35 pmThere were no ‘conspiracy theories’. Just rumours of everlasting electric lightbulbs, Freudian symbolism cunningly hidden in New Zealand lamb commercials, the Daleks’ ability to induce warlike tendencies in puddingbowled young males and the like.
I remember the coining of ‘urban myths’ too in the early eighties. How amazed I was to realize that the baby in the microwave hadn’t happened to a friend of a friend of a friend. Innocent and stupid times.
Chris
October 15, 2008 at 5:43 pmyea, had forgotten about all those classic ‘friend of a friend’ stories. very often they also had a rather insidiopus ‘wages of sin are death’ moral to them, like you’d get in James Herbert books. the apocraphal story of the guy who got off with some girl in a bar only to wake up the next day to see “welcome to the world of AIDS” written on his mirror in lipstick being perhaps the best example.
maybe things like that were just a reflection on people’s fears of ‘losing moral’ codes where-as now conspiracy theories replace religion and answers to questions of power and morality in our secular times, but instead of ‘believing’ in the virgin birth or the parting of the seas people belive in the pentagon being responsible for 9/11 or that there are alien corpses hidden in secret government bunkers.
just a thought. đ
Sam
October 15, 2008 at 6:00 pmWell…I wouldn’t call the USA ‘secular’.
alistairliv
October 15, 2008 at 6:52 pmA USA based conspiracy theory emerged in 1975 called “The Gemstone Files” which was made into a cartoon (or mini graphic novel) strip for International Times after IT relaunched in 1976. I could never make head not tale of it.
The Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson came out about the same time and was much more fun. It is a compendium of conspiracy theories and an attempt to immanentize the eschaton The pre – KLF Justified Ancients of Mu Mu were inspired by the Illuminatus books.
For more on immanentizing the eschaton see
http://greengalloway.blogspot.com/2007/03/immanentize-eschaton-like-we-did-last.html
and
http://greengalloway.blogspot.com/2008/02/immanetizing-eschaton-part-23.html
baron von zubb
October 15, 2008 at 7:46 pmMate you might ‘ve thought it was the soft machine but i can only remember the velvets. Must have been all that acid you took.
You & Lea wasnt it?
Ever hear from him? Top man
‘One mans wah….’
Isn’t the idea of capitalism being evil & our solution, anarchism a conspiracy theory?
Anyway Andus has rumbled us. We’re just a load of posey smack wannabes. Good for our middle age cred on punk websites.
And I still think that all these posts should be creditied to the big thread.
It were all about that Sam geezer that started it.
Im gonna start a petition.
But im getting this funny vibe from the above posts that generally people DO believe that Osama bin Ladan -ansahlalalasha insulluanalechum-
a) exists
and
b) trained a load of abdabs to blow up the twin towers
Lets accept that for minute.
They have been looking for him for what 7 years now in a very small part of Pakistan.
Aint got him
Why is that exactly?
I know the terrain, bin near to there meself. But 7 years?
Does he keep poppin over to Peshawer for a kebab every time adrone floats by his cave?
I reckon them photos of the flared wearing groovers from the eighties called the Bin Ladens are actually some well known but despised Saudi circus act.
Bin Ladn shbin shladen
Sam
October 15, 2008 at 8:02 pmSurely there are easier ways of stirring up misdirected patriotism in a population than destroying an important national landmark and killing hundreds of civilians? Americans in general have a tendency towards Rupert Brooke jingoism anyway.
Q: Did the ‘working class’ exist before Karl Marx named them as such?
Penguin • Post Author •
October 15, 2008 at 8:18 pmGotta keep the comments on the posts they appear on Baron Von Zubabub kinda organically growing y’know.
You scared the comments are gonna catch the big thread up eh? Getting a little nervous?
I wouldn’t if I were you…looking forward to the Campbell Buildings reunion and the 700th comment on that thread.
How much is it to get Bob Short out of Aus on a plane and dump him smack (sorry) in the middle of Waterloo.
alistairliv
October 15, 2008 at 9:26 pmSam’s question:
Q: Did the âworking classâ exist before Karl Marx named them as such?
A. Short answer â yes they did, but Marx re-named them as the ‘proletarians’ in the Communist Manifesto in 1847 to indicate the revolutionary potential of a working class which has become conscious of itself as a class in opposition to previous revolutionary class, the bourgeoisie.
See http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
which is a damn good read.
Long answer. As ‘the labouring classes’ or ‘the working classes’ they did. I have found a dictionary definition of ‘working class’ which dates first use to 1805-15, so before Marx.
In 1840 O.A. Brownson published a book called âThe Labouring Classes -the rich against the poorâ in the USA 0 http://www.archive.org/stream/labouringclasses00browrich
In 1857 William Lucas Sargant published âThe Economy of the Labouring Classesâ in London
(viewable and downloadable from Google Books).
What Marx did is develop a theory of history similar to Darwin’s theory of evolution. [Marx was a great admirer of Darwin] in which Darwin’s natural competition between different species is mirrored by economic competition between different classes. The example Marx drew on was the struggle between the dominant noble or aristocratic class which dominated the feudal (medieval) era and the merchant or bourgeoisie class. So long as the merchant class remained unaware that it was a separate class rather than just part of feudal society, the aristocratic class ruled. But as the merchants became conscious of their collective / shared ‘class interest’ so they began to come into conflict with the aristocratic class and the previously taken for granted feudal system.
Eventually this struggle compelled the merchants to become (reluctant) revolutionaries and overthrow the aristocratic class and the fuedal system through an economic revolution in Britain and a bloody revolution in France.
But â following the philosophical system of Hegel â Marx argued that the triumph of the bourgeoisie was not the end of history. The new dominant class had created or were creating the conditions for the next stage of historic development. The ‘new’ working classes, labouring in the new factories of the new economy but excluded from the benefits of that economy would in turn become – through their struggles with the bourgeoisie â conscious of themselves as a separate class which he called the proletariat and in turn become revolutionaries.
However, their revolution would be the last one. Their revolution would remove the economic inequalities which had given rise to previous class struggles, switching off, as it were, the motor of history.
.
Sam
October 16, 2008 at 3:13 amInteresting stuff Alistair. Thanks. Living in America I rarely hear people describe themselves as working class.
alistairliv
October 16, 2008 at 6:10 amOne explanation why the working class revolution Marx anticipated was just around the corner in Victorian times hasn’t happened is that trades union activity raised wages enough so that there emerged a ‘respectable working class’ by who also had basic education after 1870.
This ‘respectable working class’ – especially in heyday of British Empire in UK and equivalent other colonial projects – identified their interests with those of the ‘middle classes’ and the Royal Family etc. -this failed to become class conscious. In USA, successive waves of immigration plus race and slavery had similar divisive effect.
Most recently – through Thatcher policies in UK e.g. sale of council houses and even more recently in USA and UK access to cheap mortgages was used to encourage poorer people (the working class) to become property/home owners and so believe themselves to be no longer part of the old working class.
The whole ‘sub-prime mortgage’ problem which has now blown up turning ‘all that seems solid into air’ to use a quote from the Communist Manifesto.
Ian S
October 16, 2008 at 9:49 amChris wrote: “Out of interest WERE THERE really such things as âconspiracy theoriesâ back then?”
Like Sam said above, conspiracy theories hadn’t made much headway into British public awareness in the 1970s and 1980s.
People intrigued and excited by ‘hidden knowledge’ were well catered for with Erich von Daniken books, Michael Baigent’s ‘The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail’, Robert Temple’s ‘The Sirius Mystery’ and much else.
Global government type conspiracies were mainly restricted to the far right, although in the US there were slightly less extreme theories on what was supposedly behind the policy of detente between the US and USSR, eg Charles Levinson’s 1977 book ‘Vodka Cola’.
The film ‘Capricorn One’, a drama about moon landings being faked in a studio, also came out in 1977. Some Americans evidently took it to be a documentary though, and enthusiasts like to think that OJ Simpson is being persecuted to this day because he had the brass neck to appear in it.
Nic
October 16, 2008 at 10:41 amThere is some very interesting critical writing on how ideas of ‘Secret Societies’ and ‘Conspiracy Theories’ informed the initial development of the ‘Detective’ genre in literature…
Come back, Andus: as Adam Ant said “Ridicule is nothing to be scared of”…
andus
October 16, 2008 at 10:48 amNic. I will be back later Nic, I in the process of writing a long article which I will post later, I wasn’t gonna bother but seeing as you are all so wide of the mark I feel it has to be done. Just checking the thread to see if there are any other things I need to address, but before I go.
Wikepedia. the sinister right wing anti semetic web-site.
Nic
October 16, 2008 at 10:55 amThat’s the ticket, Andus: it’s always good to get the creative juices flowing…
andus
October 16, 2008 at 12:25 pmActually Nic I may as well post it in sections.
THE CONSPIRACY THEORY.
On september 11th 2001 two planes flew into the twin towers. exploding on impact causing a fire of such intense heat that it melted the steel gurders causing both towers to collapse demolition style hours later, in 12 seconds flat, The debri from these towers flew into another tower called WTC7, causing three fires on two separate floors, these fires again burned with such intense heat that it caused the steel gurders to melt which in turn caused the building to collapse this time in 10 seconds flat, All three towers collapsed at free fall rate, ie at the same speed you would get from an apple being dropped from the same height. These three towers were in fact the FIRST ! three towers in history to have collapsed through fire. The building in Madrid that was attacked burned for days and days, it had a fire on every floor, IT DID NOT COLLAPSE !
Questions.
1).How is it that jet fuel which burns at approx 1000 degrees fahrenheit, melted steel gurders that are built to withstand 2,200 degrees fahrenheit
( Don’t yawn but they’re not. I know they are cause my brother is a welder and works with those type of gurders, even he was a bit non-plussed as to how they melted, )
2) How did the intense heat of the jet fuel reach the other steel gurders further away from the plane and melt them as well, as would have been needed for the building to collapse pan-cake style.
3) How was it that people standing in the towers right next to the point of impact, ( which is shown on tv footage ) did not have their skin melted off as would have been the case if they were that close to such intense heat, they weren’t even screaming, as they would have been with burns of that nature.
4) How is it that both towers collapsed after the fires had died and/or been put out. Firefighters testified to this as they left the building telling cnn reporters that all the fires are out, after they had rescued as many people as possible.
5) Virtually all of the firefighters have testified to hearing explosions going off whilst in the building, which is what prompted the last remaining firefighters to leave the building, some heard explosions coming from the basement ( Don’t say yawn only they haven’t, cause I have film footage of them saying that )
part 1 over with another 10 odd to go
Penguin • Post Author •
October 16, 2008 at 1:12 pmDo not forget to add to the mix above that two very heavy objects hit the middle ish of the towers at very high speed and that would have impacted heavily on the safety of the structure somewhat and the above floors would definately be at risk of collapsing.
The fuel, which would have lasted for a two hour burn to the original destinations of the planes, would have been dump all at once into the building and mixed with oxegen to create a hugh fireball of intense heat, far more heat than a burn in a turbine which is a controlled enviroment.
Saying all that, I am not clear on who ordered the flight to take place and of course it was an `excuse` for the U.S with some help from N.A.T.O to invade Afganistan to get onto the border of China the only communist superpower left, and then onto the oil fields of Iraq.
Keep them coming Andus…
chris
October 16, 2008 at 1:19 pmQUOTE: How was it that people standing in the towers right next to the point of impact, ( which is shown on tv footage ) did not have their skin melted off as would have been the case if they were that close to such intense heat, they werenât even screaming, as they would have been with burns of that nature.
haha!! Brilliant! So there were people standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE TOWERS’ POINT OF IMPACT who survived??!! Who are these superhuman beings, pray tell, so I may place my bets on them in a battle with Godzilla?
Andus mate, unless you are a structural engineer the above post isn’t YOUR opinion, it’s simply stuff you’ve culled from 9/11 conspiracy sites and from watching Loose Change etc – all of which have been discredited or rationally explained years ago. Just because you’ve seen film of something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s to be believed. I’ve seen a talking horse called Mr Ed on TV before – I wouldn’t necessarily take that as an accurate representation of equine anthropology.
anyway, here is a debunking of all this 9/11 conspiracy bullshit which answers ALL your above points more than adequately:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
Really, don’t bother posting any more of this stuff up. There’s enough of it on the internet already. You believe what you want mate but we’re all intelligent enough folks on here to be able to assess the information available and make up our own minds, and no, that does not mean we, as you put it earlier “think the CIA are good guys”, or make us ‘government dupes’, ‘state stooges’, ‘taken in by the M15 mind-control machine’ or as the ‘Truthers’ call us unbelievers “SHEEPle”.
To infer as such is just a teeny weeny bit condescending.
Nic
October 16, 2008 at 1:20 pmA lot of the points made regarding the physical destruction of the Twin Towers seem to be based upon received ideas of what particular structures and elements SHOULD do in a given situation (which doesn’t take into account elements of chance or the particular individual situation of an object) and also of a ‘textbook scenario’ being played out in the real world…
As a result, questions are asked which can just as easily be answered by further questions…
For example:
Why shouldn’t there be explosions inside a building (either from stairwells or the basement)? Build-ups of gases and pockets of air could easily create the conditions for explosions…Also – are these sounds definitely explosions? Could they not be the sounds of a gigantic structure shakig and snapping?
Why shouldn’t a structure collapse after it has been subject to extreme fire damage (even if the fire has been put out)?
And why shouldn;t structures collapse at different speeds 9depending on their own individual situation and construction)?
And why shouldn’t other structures catch alight and not collapse (considering that their situation is individual)?
Why should people be screaming when the plane crashed into the tower? Having little experience of or information on such a situation, I am not able to ascertain exactly how other humans may respond…
There was an interesting programme on BBC 2 a little while ago Andus which investigated similar claims to those you raise in your comment above: it provided (seemingly) rational answers to them…
I believe that religious fanatics planned and executed the destruction of the World Trade Centre (in line with considerable rhetoric regarding this aim which has been circulating for at least 15 years), that they may possibly have received further advice from other people, that they were the only people involved, and that they succeeded precisely because the US government just could not conceive the possibility of an internal attack of such magnitude…
No conspiracy, no ‘secret truth’ – just the boring reality of pain, suffering and misery…
andus
October 16, 2008 at 1:21 pmpart 2
6) How is it that only WTC7 was hit and caught fire from the debri off the twin towers, when buildings much nearer did not.
Is it just a co-incidence that there was a CIA headquarters in that building as reported by the mainstream media.
The German defence minister has alleged that is was this building they ran the operation from
7) How did they fly these planes to the twin towers and the Pentagon, when it has been reported that they all failed their tests, and yet they flew these planes with more accuracy than a professional pilot, without any navigational help, with the same accuracy as a cruise missile. Were these planes actually flown by remote control
8)why weren’t the planes shot down down by the American air defence corps called Norad
9) Why was 90% of norad sent to Alaska to run ‘a drill’ on that day, for the first time in its history
( I won’t bother with the yawn bit anymore, just take it as read that I am not putting anything on here which I cannot back-up with credible evidence, )
10.) John Ashcroft showed the media a passport which had apparently been found at the bottom of the twin towers. How did this passport survive the explosion, the intense heat of the jet fuel, flying out of the chaps pocket, through the cockpit window, out of the hole in the twin tower, fell to the ground, whereupon later the tower collapsed on top of it, and the FBI found it perfectly intact. Ashcroft then held it up to the media during a press conferance, this passport had no marks on it, it wasn’t even bent !
Was it made of krytonite and did it come from a planet far far away.
10)
chris
October 16, 2008 at 1:40 pmQUOTE: just take it as read that I am not putting anything on here which I cannot back-up with credible evidence.
In which case please do so as you have not posted up one single thing that can be.
NB: please try to ensure you don’t post up links to any holocaust denial sites again though, old chap đ
andus
October 16, 2008 at 1:43 pmhaha!! Brilliant! So there were people standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE TOWERSâ POINT OF IMPACT who survived??!! Who are these superhuman beings, pray tell, so I may place my bets on them in a battle with Godzilla?
They did not survive the impact, they came from other rooms in the towers.
The thing is Chris I have film footage of that which I taped off the Tv on the day it happened. people standing in the open wound of the tts, with fires raging next to them. they are simply standing there waiting for help.
and I have watched all the debunking films, including the bbc one were they basically lied about what the cts were saying, and I have listened to George Galloway radio’s show where he states that the main plank of 9-11 ct is that all the jews were evacuted from the building, NONE of the CTS say that,I know cause I have seen most of the films, so why is George Galloway telling lies, this chap is a scholar he does his research,
and no I do not believe 100% that its an inside job, I do have doubts,
as for Loose Change, thats the worst film on the subject
andus
October 16, 2008 at 1:49 pmQUOTE: just take it as read that I am not putting anything on here which I cannot back-up with credible evidence.
Well I cannot post films, or scan newspapers articles from the Guardian in, for example. neither can I show you the original footage I taped off the tv during that era as its on vhs.
NB: please try to ensure you donât post up links to any holocaust denial sites again though, old chap đ
What holocaust denial sites, what the hell are you on about.
Nic
October 16, 2008 at 1:51 pmAndus, I’m going to have to bow out of this discussion, my friend…
I don’t believe any of these Conspiracy Theories (viewing them as a smokescreen and a Spectacle), and – at this point – don’t feel that it would be a productive use of time to enter into a debate of this nature…
(PS I would never trust George Galloway about anything: one dodgy character)…
andus
October 16, 2008 at 1:56 pmFor example:
Why shouldnât there be explosions inside a building (either from stairwells or the basement)? Build-ups of gases and pockets of air could easily create the conditions for explosionsâŠAlso – are these sounds definitely explosions? Could they not be the sounds of a gigantic structure shakig and snapping?
Yes. they certainly could have been gas explosions from the debri hitting gas pipes and such like, thats perfectly possible, falling debri etc. but I would still contend that it would not have gone down at free fall rate, thats the bit I have trouble with, it would have wobbled, and fallen at an uneven rate even collapsing sideways surely, but I suppose we could be looking at an unusual phenomena.
Of course there is another explanation for it which no one has considered, perhaps they broke every health and safety rule in the book when they were constructed, which would also explain the apparent cover-up.
chris
October 16, 2008 at 1:57 pmmate, are you sure you didn’t set your video to the wrong channel and record “Armageddon” instead? I was working a night shift at a certain international news agency the time of 9/11 and spent all day and most of the following night watching not only the broadcast footage, but the footage our film crews took at the scene and I honestly cannot recall seeing that.
Even If I had, what were these incredible fire-resistant superbeings SUPPOSED to do? What would YOU have done? Don’t you think they may simply have been paralysed with shock and fear?
Perhaps they were just hard as fuck and didn’t want to look ‘chicken’ infront of their mates by legging it?
chris
October 16, 2008 at 2:01 pmQUOTE: but I suppose we could be looking at an unusual phenomena.
9/11?
yea, s’pose you could say that đ
Nic
October 16, 2008 at 2:16 pmGetting back to the topic of TS Eliot and anti-Semitism, I think that my original point has been slightly misinterpreted (which may well be due my phrasing in the original post)…
I wasn’t suggesting that ‘The Wasteland’ had been accused of anti-Semitism: rather, I intended to note (as it drew a parallel with Ezra Pound) that Eliot had been accused of anti-Semitism for his writing in other poems (and for a particular quote in a pseech he delivered), largely due to the content of the following poems:
– Sweeney Among the Nightingales
– Gerontion
– Burbank with a Baedeker: Bleistein with a Cigar
– A Cooking Egg
– Dirge
It is interesting to note just how strong such sentiments were at the time (particularly in the build-up to World War 1) in all aspects of cultural activity, and how much of the ‘intellectual’ engagement of the day was intermingled with right wing ideologies…
chris
October 16, 2008 at 2:55 pmNot forgetting that even many radicals and left-wingers of the day were far from impervious to anti-semitism.
but anyway, Nic, the stuff about remote controlled jumbo jets is more fun.
andus
October 16, 2008 at 3:12 pmChris I recorded 5 hours of news on the night of 9-11, I can’t play it at the moment cause my Vhs died a couple of months back, This was a geezer standing in the gapping whole that was left by the plane, with fires raging around him, I looked at the same footage on the web, the geezer didn’t look burn’t to me, which you would think he would have been, but perhaps the CTS doctored the footage and airbrushed his burns out.
I have just looked at the link you posted. their arguments are perfectly valid, but I have one problem with it, they claim that WTC7 had fires on all floors and that the CTS only show you footage from the south side of the building, which is correct, however are we to assume that even more debri hit WTC7 than first thought, in which case more of it missed the towers nearer,. I also have problems with their contention that some of the steel was aliminium and not steel, My bikes alloy you can break it in half with a sledge hammer, a building with alloy girders, surely not ?
They also correctly observed that the building did tilt a bit before coming down pancake style. but the main reason I am skeptical about the skeptics is chiefly down to the speed the building fell at, free-fall.
The other thing to consider is this. A new security company took over the security of the TTS a couple of months beforee 9-11, called Visor consultants, director Peter Powell, the same company were running a drill in london on 7/7 to tEst london’s security,at the exact same 3 tube stations where the terrorists struck, I know this for an absolute fact, because Powell was interviewed by the bbc that night, and told the interviewer that ‘we were were running a drill at the exact same 3 tube stations can you believe it, and then he chuckled. I have that on dvd cause I got my mate to record it, I’ll send you a copy if you want, that interview is on you tube somewhere probably, The Cts were on about Visor Consultants before 7/7 took place. I was astounded when this Powell chap turns up on the bbc news announced that night annoucing ‘I am from visor consultants etc.
Visor Consultants is owned by Marvyn Bush, George Bush’s brother
andus
October 16, 2008 at 3:22 pmThat’s right Nic there was a lot of it about in those days, Bakunin the anarchist was anti-semitic, Most of the anti semetic literature that went into Germany in the early 1930s was imported from America, Ostera the anti-semetic magazine that Hitler got his ideas from was an American Import, as was the film The eternal jew,
andus
October 16, 2008 at 3:25 pmbut anyway, Nic, the stuff about remote controlled jumbo jets is more fun.
Remote controlled Jumbo jets, what you don’t think it possible, in age when a Hubble telescope was sent through the solar system and beyond, following a route it was programmed to follow, in an age when we have cruise missiles that can pin-point targets 1000 miles away, an age where we have cracked the human genome, the age of the computer and saterlites, but no remote control planes are simply in the realms of science fiction, come on Chris.