Various Artists – No New York – Antilles Records – 1978

CONTORTIONS: Dish It Out / Flip Your Face / Jaded / I Can’t Stand Myself      TEENAGE JESUS AND THE JERKS: Burinig Rubber / The Closet / Red Alert / I Woke Up Dreaming

MARS: Helen Fordsdale / Hairwaves / Tunnel / Puerto Rican Ghost      D.N.A: Egomanics Kiss / Lional / Not Moving / Size

A rare slap of noisy vinyl uploaded onto KYPP today, the original album that bought to the public the sounds of the small ‘No Wave’ scene exploding in New York during the latter part of 1977. The album was produced in New York by Brian Eno, of Roxy Music fame in 1978 and released on the Island Records spin off Antilles Records. A completely raw set of tracks by the movers and shakers in that small scene, The Contortions being my pick of the bunch. A glorious noise indeed.

Text below ripped from

No Wave was a short-lived, avant-garde offshoot of ’70s punk, based almost entirely in New York City’s Lower East Side from about 1978-1982. Like the post-punk movement that was primarily centered in Britain, no wave drew from the artier side of punk — but where British post-punk was mostly cold and despairing, no wave was harsh, abrasive, and aggressively confrontational. Most no wave bands were fascinated by the pure noise that could be produced by an electric guitar, making it an important component of their music (and oftentimes the central focus). Unlike punk, melody was as unimportant as instrumental technique, as most no wavers concentrated on producing an atonal, dissonant (yet often rhythmic) racket. With its assaultive artiness and theatrical angst, no wave was as much performance art as it was music. Two of no wave’s central figures were vocalist/guitarist Lydia Lunch and saxophonist James Chance, who performed together in Teenage Jesus and the Jerks; Lunch went on to a long solo career, and Chance formed an innovative no wave/funk outfit called the Contortions. The defining no wave recording is the 1978 Brian Eno-produced compilation No New York, which features material from Chance and the Contortions, Teenage Jesus, DNA (featuring avant-garde guitarist Arto Lindsay), and Mars. Although none of the no wave performers ever really broke out to wider audiences (Lunch’s prolific, collaboration-heavy solo output brought her the closest), Sonic Youth fused no wave’s distorted cacophony with the more meditative noise explorations of guitarist/avant-garde composer Glenn Branca, and became underground legends after adding more melodic structure to the sound.


One of the central figures of the No Wave movement of the late ’70s, James Chance & the Contortions formed in New York City in 1977. They were led by vocalist/saxophonist Chance, a Milwaukee native (born James Sigfried) who also answered to the alias James White. After relocating to the Big Apple to play free jazz, he fell in with the city’s avant-garde community; upon adopting the surname Chance and acquiring a wardrobe of outrageously loud suits, Chance formed the Contortions, an abrasively chaotic funk-noise outfit featuring organist Adele Bertei, guitarists Pat Place and Jody Harris, and drummer Don Christiansen.

After winning acclaim and notoriety for their wild, often combative live shows (the aggressive, nihilistic Chance often picked fistfights with audience members), the Contortions entered the studio with producer Brian Eno to record four tracks for the No New York compilation. After cutting enough material for an LP, 1979’s Buy the Contortions, the group crashed along with the No Wave scene; as James White, Chance soon resurfaced fronting the Blacks, a bizarre disco outfit comprised of most of the Contortions alumni, albeit with the notable exception of Bertei, and released Off White. In 1982, the highly regarded Sax Maniac album was released on Chris Stein’s short-lived Animal label. Unfortunately, the label disappeared quickly taking the album along with it. Chance recorded his final studio project Flaming Demonics in 1983, again for ZE, under the James White moniker.


The first band formed by vocalist/guitarist/provocateur Lydia Lunch, Teenage Jesus & the Jerks were the center of New York’s short-lived no wave movement. Cacophonous, confrontational, and fiercely inaccessible, Teenage Jesus generally played ten to fifteen minute shows, never released a full-length album, and disbanded after a relatively brief existence. Even so, they were instrumental in laying the groundwork for the noise rock movement of the ’80s, and their work still sounds as forbidding and uncompromising as anything their spiritual followers recorded. Born Lydia Koch in Rochester, NY, Lunch founded Teenage Jesus & the Jerks in 1977 when she was just 16. Initially, the group included saxophonist James Chance (who soon left to form the Contortions), Japanese bassist Reck, and drummer Bradley Field. In 1978, Reck returned to Japan and was replaced by Gordon Stevenson; thus constituted, the trio recorded four tracks with producer Brian Eno for the 1978 compilation No New York, the seminal no wave document.

By 1979, when the band issued a couple of EPs on the Lust/Unlust label, bassist/percussionist Jim Sclavunos had joined the group; however, they disbanded by the end of the year, as Lunch moved on to other projects.


Best known in noise circles as the one band on Brian Eno’s No New York compilation that had no musical experience whatsoever, Mars first appeared on the New York noise radar in 1977. Originally called “China”, and formed in 1975, the band that would become Mars would play only a handful of shows in their short career and would be limited to a handful of recorded tracks. The band was headed for split up in 1978 — regardless of their appearance on No New York — but managed to stay together long enough to record material for an EP, a self-titled affair, posthumously released in 1980. That release may be listened to on this site HERE.


One of the great bands of the short-lived, New York City-based, late-’70s “no wave” avant-garde punk scene, DNA had what barely amounts to a recording career, yet still managed to produce some crucial music. Originally comprised of guitarist Arto Lindsay, keyboardist Robin Crutchfield, and drummer Ikue Mori, DNA’s music was sparse, loud, and noisy — washes of keyboards punctuated by Lindsay’s atonal, free-form guitar explosions. DNA made their recording debut in 1978 on a sampler of no wave bands produced by Brian Eno No New York, and, along with being one of the more interesting bands on the record, also exhibited the most promise. By the time they released their first record, Crutchfield had formed a new band, the far less interesting Dark Day, and DNA had replaced him with bassist Tim Wright, an original member of the seminal Cleveland band Pere Ubu. Now a power trio, and with Lindsay’s guitar the manic focal point of their challenging music, DNA seemed poised to become one of the most exciting bands in American avant-garde rock. Instead, they became increasingly enigmatic, rarely played outside of New York, and never recorded again. After breaking up in 1982, Lindsay formed the exciting Ambitious Lovers, who have released three tremendous albums fusing noise rock with slick pop/soul and Brazilian music (Lindsay is a native of Brazil).

Best wishes go out to Chris Low who is celebrating his birthday today and  irritatingly enough (for me at least) the lad still looks the same as he did twenty five years ago…The ‘Peter Pan’ of The Apostles for sure.  Happy Birthday to you from all at KYPP online.

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1985 – 1988 All The Madmen Records and Distribution
1988 – 1991 King Penguin Distribution
1989 – 2018 Southern Studios / Southern Record Distribution

50 thoughts on “Various Artists – No New York – Antilles Records – 1978”

  1. Guys, just want to let you know about a really great blog called “Who makes the Nazis” — it lets us all in on the fascist roots of anarchism and how anarcho punk was pretty much a cover for spreading fascism, with all the inside info on Hagar the Womb and related bands.

    It is a must read — it is a real eye opener to learn that anarchism is really just another variant of fascism. The blog lets us know how anarchism, under cover of being a libertarian movement, has, all along been leading people towards the far right and nazism.

  2. UsedtobeAnarchist, you are either trolling or you are very naive.

    If anyone really thinks anarchists are fascists in disguise , they need their head looked at.

    It just isn’t worthy of debate.

    Secondly, I have done some asking around about that blog and the webmaster ‘strelnikov’ — his identity is known, and he’s a well known character apparently. The story doing the rounds about him is, he used to be on that neo fascist industrial scene himself and now he’s seeking absolution by “outing them” ( as if we needed to be told that scene was crap)then taking a classic Bloshevik line to put a spin on the whole scene.

    In the early 1900’s, the Bolsheviks tried to make out that Mahkno and his anarchists had been right wing fascists all along. Bakunin is also a fasicst nationalist in the Bolshevik book bla bla….( I could go on and on with more spin laden trivia about anarchists, but it is such a bore ) — Strelnikov is at exactly the same game. And, like many of the Bolsheviks were ( and are now), Strelnikov is clearly very authoritarian, and he is pro Zionist and Pro Israel, which tells you a lot about his stance.

    If you really want to beleive that Anarcho punk/Crass et al were fascists all along, and if you really want to beleive that Anarchism = fascism, well be my guest.

    It might be a good game if you are bored.

    It seems to be keeping Strelnikov busy anyway.

  3. DF, I did hear that James Chance was a bit racist, don’t know if it is true though.

    I don’t know that much about politics to be honest, but just think that the “Who makes the Nazis” blog is essential reading for punks, because I was amazed to read about how anarchism is a kind of right wing thing, like fascism was. People need to know the truth about it, or they may be misled by these kinds of post punk and anarcho bands and become right wing.

    And Joe, your post is condescending, and I will bet you haven’t even read that blog I linked to, or you’d know more about the obvious links between anarchism and fascism. What has all that you said got to do with anything? And what is wrong with being pro Zion? You sound a bit anti semite to me.

  4. Anarchism is neither affiliated to the right or left wing, rejecting both, and any blog that alludes to such is dishonest.

  5. Dave, that’s what I thought till I saw that blog. He says on that page that anarchism has been reactionary all the while in history, and is really just a connected journey to a far right wing thing, and Crass and all them were part of it too, Hagar as well. Read it you’ll see the links between anarchism and fascism, it is all there, it’s a real eye opener.

  6. Hagar the Womb were a multi racial band dimwit, added to that shocking fact, most of the members have been friends of mine throughout the years, ditto Crass, who I can also vouch for. Believe what you want to believe but go and spill your bullshit on some other blog.

  7. Whoever runs that site should join a youth club or something, you know, get out a bit more. Hmm, perhaps ‘youth club’ wasn’t the right choice of words. They’ll be down on me like a ton of bricks. And not one mention of the bloke from Everything But The Girls haircut!!

  8. Usedtobeananarchist — for the last time — I will explain it slowly for you.

    The so called ‘Strelnikov’ and his blog are playing up a classic Bolshevik trick, much used against Anarchists. You need to read your history mate.

    When the Bolsheviks tried to destroy Anarchism in the 1900’s, they turned truth on its head — in the ‘Bolshevik canon’ then, Nestor Mahkno was ‘a fascist nationalist White Russian tsarist collaborator’. Bakunin was ‘a right wing elitist Slavic nationalist.’ Max Stirner was ‘an inspiration for the black shirts/brown shirts etc etc.’

    It is all just spew and bile to make Anarchism appear morally, politically and socially redundant — And if you are gullible and sheep like enough ( which it looks like you, and Strelnikov and his blog surely are ) you will then spin out the Trotskyite/Leninist party line : “Oohhh, those dastardly anarchists! They were evil fascists all along ! We been swindled! Onward the Bolsheviks, the true people’s revolution!”

    All utter nonsense — if you read the history of the Russian revolution and what happened in its wake, you’ll see the millions of lives that Trotsky and Lenin and the Bolsheviks destroyed ; and you’ll see the thousands and thousands of Anarchists murdered, imprisoned,beaten, crushed, and banished and silenced by the Bolsheviks.

    Also, please don’t hint that Anarchists are ‘anti Semitic’ — the very long list of Jewish Anarchists make up a crucial part of Anarchist history; and at the time of the Russian Revolution, and before then, one of the few places Jews were safe from Pogroms — were under the protectorate of the Anarchist Cossack Nestor Mahkno, or amongst the ranks of his insurgent rebel army.

    If anyone wants to read more to counter such Bolshevik twisting of historical record to make Anarchists look like fascists, then read Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Voline, ( all Jewish Anarchists ) and Arshinov — their records clearly show how Trotsky and the Bolsheviks literally invented the ‘Anarchists = fascists’ smear.

  9. PS Penguin et al at KYPP, I am sorry to digress from the topic of ‘No Wave’, but, someone has to deal with the slur against Anarchism,which seems quite fashionable in some circles these days — it is annoying to see Anarchism discredited, and then seeing gullible or impressionable people waste their time actually believing the spin.

    Anyway — Thanks KYPP for all your great pages and beautiful music.

  10. That’s alright Joe, people have now got the link to that site if they want to go and browse on it and make up their minds.
    I would rather go with my personal experience with meeting members of the two bands mentioned above over many, many years to make up my mind on the question of fascism, rather than follow someones views written out on a blog based on coincidences, unchecked rumours and half truths.

  11. “a blog based on coincidences, unchecked rumours and half truths”

    Naturally you decline to offer examples of this, because it isn’t true – as you would know if you had actually read the blog. If you want to dispute the facts and arguments put forward on the blog feel free to do so; but if you want to just spout hot air, maybe you should do it in private, where you are less likely to get hauled up about it.

    As for what is being argued about anarchism on the blog, nothing is said about anarchism in general or it’s supposed relationship to fascism, though particular anarchists are discussed, ‘National Anarchists’ are discussed, and Stewart Home’s essays on Anarchist Integralism are given positive mentions. Since two of the main targets of criticism on the WMTN blog are ex-Trotskyists (and so, from your point of view, Bolsheviks), and since the discussion of anarchism makes up only a tiny fraction of what is discussed there, it seems more than just a little bit idiotic to claim that the Who Makes the Nazis blog is an example of Bolshevik smearing of anarchists and anarchism.

    If you attack an anti-fascist blog without checking that what you are saying about it is true, you are deliberately sowing division and so helping the fascists. It is fundamentally irresponsible. I’d ask future commentators on this thread to at least read the blog before spreading more dirt around.

  12. I do not have to read your blog to have the knowledge that people I have known for decades are not fascists. And I am more than willing to be ‘hauled up about it’.

    Hagar The Womb and Crass are specifically mentioned by the person above.

    If you feel your information is correct then fair shout.

    I, on the other hand, know that I am correct with stating that these bands and the members within them are NOT fascist.

    BTW if you must quote me please supply the full quote in the context it was written:

    “I would rather go with my personal experience with meeting members of the two bands mentioned above over many, many years to make up my mind on the question of fascism, rather than follow someones views written out on a blog based on coincidences, unchecked rumours and half truths”.

    I am not willing to play internet ping pong with you or anyone else regarding this so we will have to agree to disagree.

    And also as I stated above:

    “people have now got the link to that site if they want to go and browse on it and make up their minds”.

    That was written as I have absolutely nothing against your blog.

  13. If anyone does look at that blog they will see that Ruth Hagar and Kaya Youth In Asia very articulately dispelled these totally unfounded rumours of fascism back in December, so the fact that this issue is being raised again now on this site is decidedly suspicious and not to be taken at face value. I am not a fascist and, after all, I should know. However I am Jewish, which makes the above all the more ridiculous. It gave Graham a laugh though so has done some good I suppose. Thanks for the support Puppyites. Oh, and to Usedtobeananarchist/Strelnikov, an apology wouldn’t go amiss, know what I’m saying???

  14. I think I’m going to start a blog called “Steph from Hagar used to juggle kittens”. Of course the idea is ludicrous, but I can post it on the internet and therefore someone will believe it and keep posting about it.

    Then some person calling himself “usedtobeakittenjuggler” can keep insisting that it must be true even though nobody has ever seen anything to make them suspect Steph of kitten juggling and anybody who knows Steph knows that she has never juggled a kitten and would never even consider juggling with cats of any age. Still as I said if it’s on the internet it must be true.

    Cool, great now can we get back to No New York?

  15. London punk was a cheap imitation of real punk which came from New York where it was invented by the New York Dolls (who glammed up some Velvet Underground). The Dolls were too chaotic for Malcolm Mclaren so he created his naughty boy band as a substitute marketing ploy.

    But if its real punk you want, New York is the real deal.

    PS If any one wants to carry on witch hunting go to: (all about Nazi Anarchists).

  16. Once again John No Last Name you are the voice of reason – if I can say that about a post that talks about me juggling kittens…

  17. The Dolls were already a spent force by the time McLaren got his hands on them.
    In regard to the scene which spang up around the Pistols? Most agree it was an altogether different animal. The Dolls, Ramones, Stooges et al indeed all played a pivotal role in inspiring their English counterparts. However, several major factors including the country’s then depressed political climate, would produce something quite unique to Britain.

  18. Hi Steph, I think we’ll be okay just so long as those photos and that video of you juggling kittens doesn’t show up on the interweb any time soon.

  19. “London punk was a cheap imitation of real punk which came from New York where it was invented by the New York Dolls (who glammed up some Velvet Underground). The Dolls were too chaotic for Malcolm Mclaren so he created his naughty boy band as a substitute marketing ploy.

    But if its real punk you want, New York is the real deal.”

    Deja vu. Methinks we’ve had this out before. I can’t help but feel you’re just trying a wind up Alistair. That said, I can’t resist saying ‘total bollocks’ to you. If the Dolls were imitating anyone, it certainly wasn’t the Velvets. They were one in, what seems to be a procession of pale Stones imitators. Thunders trying to out-Keef Keef. Imitation Mick frontman.
    I don’t know why bands lose credibility in some people’s eyes when the manager gets involved. No Warhol – no classic Velvets. No Bernie Rhodes – no classic Clash. The whole process is not as uncompromising as romantics choose to think. Record producers are there to define a band’s sound. The Stooges were defined by John Cale. Malcolm had the double edged gift of inspiring and hampering. Any Pistols song shits all over ‘Looking for a Kiss’ or any of that nonsense. This Noo York drivel started with the self-agrandising Legs McNeil in the nineties and his book was an obvious, bitter riposte to England’s Dreaming by Jon Savage. The audience (all of us here) made punk because we understood the energy. The crowd of artsy types at CBGBs used to sit around at tables. According to McNeil the frigging Doors were an early punk band.

    Hook, bait, fish, bottom of boat I know.

  20. Glad to read that. Thank you Strelnikov for clearing that up.

    ‘Usedtobeananarchist’ should also take note of this fact to avoid any confusion on any other blog in the future.

    There are still fascists and racists everywhere in the UK so anti fascist / anti racist blogs should be applauded for the work the moderators put into highlighting this issue.
    It is always an up hill battle to combat this mindset from some sections of our society.

  21. One of my main concerns about that blog is the fact that the webmaster chooses to remain anonymous, which is nothing short of cowardly — ( the joke is, as I said I have asked around his ex industrial scene, and people DO know very well who he is.)

    If he is going to make such outrageous claims and smears against Anarchists — why doesn’t he put his name to the project, instead of hiding behind an anon. name tag?

    Mr “Strelnikov” — don’t be surprised if people who have devoted many, many years of their lives to Anarchism feel pissed off at being misrepresented by Bolsheviks and Trots ( like you ) as being fascist. People don’t like it, especially if it is done anonymously and with poor shoddy scholarship as your blog does.

    Here’s a challenge for you — if you are serious about your ‘anti fascist cause,’ then, be serious, stop playing around — c’mon my friend, tell us who you are.

    In the meantime, don’t be such an a___e, and don’t start painting serious Anarchists as right wing fascists.

    We don’t like your game ‘Strelnikov.’

  22. And, ‘Strelnikov’, I agree with Steph Hag — why don’t you apologise to her/Hagar the Womb ? That would be a good gesture to make up for your cheap smear strategy…

  23. Just ignore it. The trolling posts here are clearly a wind up so don’t take the bait.

    The only people that blog benefits are, ironically, the Death In June/neo-folk Herr Flick brigade the blog is against. Can’t think of how you could create a better PR platform to promote them to folk who would otherwise never have even heard of these adenoidal, 30 year old virgin, bedsit loners, not to mention validate their existance and enhance the transgressive ‘outsider’ status they so crave than this blog, well intentioned though most of it is.

    As another poster very succinctly posted up before: “if someone wears a CND badge it is a logical assumption that they support nuclear disarmament. If someone wears an SS Totenkopf badge………”

    Also, as the guy behind the blog used to be involved with the industrial scene himself there’s more than a whiff of ‘none so bitter as the lover scorned’ to it all and (particularly in that absurd piece on anarcho-punk) judgement and rationality often go out the window when it comes to matters of the heart.

    Wonder if he goes posting up his conjecture on any of the Antifa/AFA sites? Unlikely.

  24. People who have posted here have obviously not read much on the Who Makes The Nazis blog, certainly not enough to comment with any authority.

    The “From Anarcho-Punk to Fascism” blog does not accuse the bands or people mentioned of being fascists with the exception of Gary Smith who it is well-known is a fascist and a racist. It even goes pretty light on the Death in June bunch in my opinion. What it discusses is punks like Penny Rimbaud who showed a too much tolerance to the British Movement and NF bootboys. The blog is there so anyone can add their views on the subject and dictates nothing. The article ends with these lines:
    “But it also raises the question of to what extent Fascists were able to operate on the fringes of the anarcho milieu (… ) but for now I just want to register this issue and say that if you have more information about this murky territory I’d be happy to hear about it.”

    There are a lot of other articles on the blog that discuss fascist infiltration of various genres of music (Neo-folk, martial industrial etc), and they come from a fairly broad range of viewpoints it seems.

    I find it strange that people get so defensive about intelligent discussion. It is easy to make your point without trashing what is in my opinion a worthwhile blog that attempts to uncover the way fascism operates to infiltrate all sorts of music scenes and political movements. It infiltrated parts of the Green movement and co-opted some of their agenda in the nineties and beyond, as it did with the Animal Liberation Front. In the same way it did with various music genres, and, yes, fringes of the anarcho-punk scene. I think Strelnikov, whoever he may be, has done a fantastic job and created useful debate in combatting fascist attempts to co-opt wherever it can. I think “Used to be an anarchist” did everyone a service in posting the link.

  25. Jack, I don’t think anyone objects to those awful bands being analysed, or looked at closer.

    I think what people do object to though, is the tabloid nature of many of the rumour laden smear ‘investigations’ on his page, many of which wouldn’t look out of place in the Daily Mail in an article on radical Muslims in Finsbury Park or Elephant and Castle — “It emerged that Tyrone Smith had, thirty five years ago, once been a member of a radical black separatist movement connected to the NOI. He has not explained his views.” Or ” It was discovered that Muhammad Sohail of Forest Gate had once attended a meeting of the Egyptian Brotherhood. He has refused to dis associate with them.”

    I can’t stand any of the bands he profiles on his page, and neither do I go in for their cabaret Nazi tastes — but much of Strelnikov’s critique of these terrible Nazi acts has the exact same witchhunt rumour laden hearsay smear ‘flavour’ as the above.

    Also, there is an underlying thread in some of his articles suggesting that Anarchism is a reactionary variant of Fascism, which is patently absurd. Yes, we all know the minor aberration-cross over thinkers — Sorel, Stirner, some of Proudhon’s statements, all five of the BANA group etc — but they are hardly representative of Anarchism as a whole. Suggesting Anarchism is a variant of fascism is plain wrong, and may mislead the less knowledgeable readers. ( But I think that is what Strelnikov intends to do anyway).

    Also, there is no real aim or objective on his page, beyond looking closer at a few vaudeville pop acts who dressed up in fancy dress Nazi gear thirty years ago — Ok, Strelnikov claims wants to ‘expose’ and shame fascist industrialists — fine. Good.

    But how many fascist occultists are there in the world, and are they any real threat? Why isn’t the page moving the discussion on and looking at other manifestations of Fascism too? If he wants to stay with critiquing vaudeville pop groups as he is doing now, fine; after all that is his professed purpose , focus and interest area, but such an aim is limited, unless he also looks at wider connected movements, and how the fascism he claims to hate also manifests now.

    Also,whilst claiming to be against fascism, the whole page actually seems to display an absolute fascination with all that airless, claustrophobic, shlock fascist imagery —

    And, some of those industrial bands and their ‘ideologies’ are stamped as kosher and ok by Strelnikov –whilst others are not, and are stamped as needing to be ‘packed off to reeducation camp.’

    But I can’t see much difference at all in the bands/images Strelnikov passes as ‘ok’ — and those who he considers as ‘not ok’. Some of the acts were perhaps ‘being ironic’ or making a ‘wider relevant art statement’ of some kind, but I can’t see much difference between them.

    Finally, if Strelnikov is serious — why is he using a silly pseudonym?

    The truth is, most of these pop bands he showcases are just not serious — and neither is Strelnikov.

    These bands are playing around with ‘fascism’ — so is Strelnikov.

  26. I love your site – I started listening to punk circa 1977, but stoppped listening to punk completely by about 1981, and I can now see from your site how many good bands I missed out on.

    I bought into a kind of snobbery that you will surely well remember happening after the first/second wave of punk, that considered all ‘rock related’ music over, done, redundant. Certainly PIL, the Slits, and a few other bands encouraged that outlook. You will remember all the ‘I despise rock music’ rhetoric. I sold every single one of my punk and ‘rock related’ records and got heavily into dub, funk, avant garde, rare jazz etc, and now I am older and wiser, I see how, much of that stream within ‘post punk’ that rejected all later punk was just so fckn snobby and often, just plain full of it….

    Thanks — I appreciate all the energy and effort put into a really worthwhile project. So much good music I missed.

    An ex punk and an ex music snob thanks you all !

    PS Any chance of posting The Models “Man of the Year” and The Fall’s ‘Psycho Mafia” records at some point?

  27. @ Joe
    Why don’t you comment on the WMTN site? It is an open forum. There are plenty of people defending their opinions, politics (even fascism) and tastes in the comments threads. I think you have good points to make.

    As for the articles being tabloid that’s frankly rubbish. Posts like “Adorno on Nietzche and Amorality”, and “Hanns Eisler: Contemporary Music and Fascism (1944)” are not in any way “tabloid”. Peter Webb, an “academic” who has been challenged on the blog, wrote his own post defending himself. The point of the blog is surely to start debate, so what’s your problem exactly? Again. if you feel strongly why don’t you add to that debate. It would interesting to hear your views in the context of other opinions there.

    You ask “But how many fascist occultists are there in the world, and are they any real threat?”. Well, there are a hell of a lot all over the world, and yes they are a threat. I don’t know if you have noticed but far-right politics are very much on the rise across Europe, Russia, the post-Soviet states and North America. I would direct you to the many comments made by a character called Oeneric Imperium, an self-confessed fascist and racist from Philadelphia, who makes the point again and again that it is a widespread scene, particularly in the States (Portland, Detroit, and many other degraded industrial cities), and he also admits that the politics are deliberately disseminated through the post-punk/industrial/neofolk scene. He is also well-informed about the broader fascist scene in Europe and its Industrial/neofolk connections. This is the whole contention of the blog. If you really don’t believe this is true, just spend half an hour looking online and you will open a can of worms, believe me.

    You say “Also, whilst claiming to be against fascism, the whole page actually seems to display an absolute fascination with all that airless, claustrophobic, shlock fascist imagery”. Well, how the hell do you run a blog that specifically challenges the way fascist co-opt the music scene through aesthetics, music and other entryist tactics without using the imagery employed to make your point?

    Finally I would point you to “Apoliteic music: Neo-Folk, Martial Industrial and ‘Metapolitical Fascism’” by Anton Shekhovtsov and “Monsters in the Mirror – Representations of Nazism in Post-War Pop Culture”, specifically Chapter Nine “Keep Feeling Fasci/nation: Neofolk and the Search for Europe” by Emily Turner-Graham, and then come back to me. I think you might have changed your opinion a bit.

  28. “Also, whilst claiming to be against fascism, the whole page actually seems to display an absolute fascination with all that airless, claustrophobic, shlock fascist imagery”.

    I provided imagery for my piece about Death In June that would appeal to DIJ fans. The idea being that they would be more likely to read what I was saying that way.

  29. Jack Spot wrote — “You ask “But how many fascist occultists are there in the world, and are they any real threat?”. Well, there are a hell of a lot all over the world, and yes they are a threat. I don’t know if you have noticed but far-right politics are very much on the rise across Europe, Russia, the post-Soviet states and North America.”

    My point precisely — You make my point for me– of course there is a rise in the far right, from Bradford to Ilford to Kiev to Tel Aviv to Krakow — my question is, how many of them could care less who David Tibet and the rest of those vaudeville loons are?

    You could probably count the ones that listen to that rubbish on one hand — if there is a new fascist threat ( and I believe there is one ) I very much doubt David Tibet or the other loons are going to have anything to do with it, or push people to get involved, beyond inspiring a tiny fringe element in a pub in Saffron Walden or, perhaps, in a small Polish village.

    I don’t know why Strelnikov is wasting his time — which then leads me to think he must actually fascinated by all that rubbish, all the vaudeville imagery and cod fascist stuff — and , indeed, it certainly looks that way from his blog pages.

    The whole page seems thoroughly fascinated by all the obscure minutiae of the entire claustrophobic and narcissistic scene.

    These bands are just not serious — neither is Strelnikov.

  30. PS I made a number of posts on Eisler and Adorno on his board — Strelnikov blocked them. He controls all the discourse on that board.That is why there is no real debate there, because he only allows a handful of posters on.

  31. Clearly you’re fascinated by the site and its contributors, Joe.

    Perhaps, instead of making judgements about how useful WMTN is in the fight against fascism, you could do something more productive yourself? 😉

    In fact, while I’m at it, shouldn’t you also be criticising people for spending too much time on fighting obscure fascist groups when they could be fighting against the excesses of neo-liberalism? (cf Jean Barrot)

    And shouldn’t we also be criticising people for listening to punk rock records when they could be finding a cure of cancer?

  32. Quite right John. Any activity which is not revolutionary is counter-revolutionary. I can write this post as a revolutionary act, but to waste time reading it is counter-revolutionary. So DO NOT READ THIS POST.

  33. Strelnikov’s blog has reached new heights of pantomime absurdity : there is now an ‘anti fascist psychic’ posting there, and there are running arguments about 1980’s pop acts,doing ‘comeback’ side show tours in London, looning around in nazi fancy dress and German army helmets.

    For some reason,Strelnikov seems to think all of these things indicate rumblings of a new Krystallnacht , (perhaps in Shoreditch?), or a cossack style pogrom in Stamford Hill….

    It is so absurd as to be very very very funny.

    Eden and Home are winding people up !

    Strelnikov has given these 80’s dress up shlock pop groups a new lease of life! Everyone had forgotten about them — ’till that new blog fixated on them. The bands are probably delighted for the publicity.

  34. Actually, I thought John Eden’s post a good read and made it’s point well.

    However, there does appear to be a plethora of errant foolishness on that site and it is fundamentally compromised by accusing certain individuals/acts of being nazis when they quite patently are not.

    I remember stuff in Sounds in the early 80s about TG being ‘nazis’ and having a ‘sinister agenda’ etc. Which was probably one of the things that attracted me to them. Not that I ever had any sympathy with nazism obviously but extremes are enduringly appealing to those who feel alienated by mainstream culture and the liberal hegemony of the music industry. A couple of years later I got into The Apostles & Whitehouse for fairly similar reasons. They both had a cachet of extremity as evidently many of these daft neo-folk and noise acts have now.

    The hypothesis being that, ironically, I should imagine a lot of what is published on the ‘who makes the nazis’ site only serves to further the appeal of these woeful Herr Flick fancy-dress box acts and for those keen to discover the most ‘extreme’ of these acts provides an invaluable resource.

  35. I am victim of Strelnikov’s web blog/site.

    His website features content of a guy who calls himself James Cavanagh.

    James tried to discredit me by quoting a web forum in which I used to post regularly around 5 years ago.

    Unfortunately the quote was WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE POSTED!

    Both Strelnikov and James have neither removed my image fully nor did they delete the libelous content.

    Neither did either approve of at least two further comments I made, which were a deeper insight into why I am choosing the type of clothing I am wearing.

    Also untrue is that I am supposedly “semi-literate”. I am sure that I would have never gotten my job as IT Director and Techinal Director if I were illiterate.

    If anyone would kindly help me please my email is my user name

    Thank you for helping

  36. Chris L, you are absolutely right in what you say, absolutely.

    That whole site reeks of Daily Mail tabloid smears of the lowest order — and the saddest thing about the whole site is, that it distracts from, and utterly ignores REAL fascism whilst fixating on the fancy dress imitation version: While real fascism is growing, Strelnikov wastes his time lambasting and smearing the Punch and Judy side show artists.

    What a joke — those bands are just not serious. Neither is Strelnikov.

    Strelnikov would do well to get a job with the Daily Mail, or else a right wing smear job website like Harry’s Place — Strelnikov does seem to have the exact same strategies and politics as Harry’s Place, that’s for sure.

  37. With respect, SOME of those acts ARE serious. However that site entirely undermines it’s own credibility by blurring those who are and those who are just in it for the fancy dress and the hope they might get laid.

    Funnily enough, there was a festival of ‘National Socialist Black Metal’ featuring loads of bands, some from as far afield as Brazil, somewhere in North London in October last year (I picked up a flyer for it blue-tacked to the phone box outside The Underworld so clearly it wasn’t just clandestinely advertised) but needless to say that didn’t receive a mention on WMTN , probably because the guy who does it isn’t obsessed with that scene (tho admittedly, it IS quite evidently absurd and hardly likely to spark a Kristallnacht on the streets of Camden)

  38. The problem with Strelnikov’s site is that it exists in a time-warp – it’s about 20 years too late: beyond a few right-armers in Portugal and Portland, the large majority of the ‘Far Right’ have no interest in D.I.J. and their ilk…

    The current (and real) interest should perhaps be focused on the ‘Black Metal’ (or ‘NSBM’) genre which has much more of a foothold in the youth of Eastern Europe and America – because it speaks directly to their concerns…The difference is in perspective: in Eastern Europe, ‘Black Metal’ means the opportunity to exercise bigotry through violence…In East London, it means the opportunity to wear a ‘Burzum’ t-shirt inbetween drinking Jagermeisters…

  39. Very funny you should say that, Nic. I was just commenting to a friend on Sunday how Black Metal shirts appear to be as ubiquitous around Hoxton as United shirts are in Newcastle. Dark Throne ones being particularly ‘du jour’ as there is a definite correlation between how indecipherable the band’s logo is and how much of a indolent cock-ring the wearer looks.

  40. Nic and Chris, you get it pretty much right.

    Strelnikov’s 80’s pop goth industrial revival website has pretentions of being an anti fascist site, when he misses his target all together —

    The other annoying thing about Strelnikov is that he censors anyone who doesn’t go along with his narrow minded view of what constitutes fascism. So, people are blocked from his board.

    His board is an in club chat room for people who follow Stewart Home’s world view, which Strelnikov has taken on and assumed at face value, and bought into, hook line and sinker — but without picking up any of the humour and piss taking and agent provocateur strategy/very deliberate mis-information that Home went in for. Or, his page is a place for those who want to see the likes of Test Dept and SPK and DAF as a threat to the world.

    Strelnikov is not going to let anyone else on his board — which is why people discuss his page here.

    Strelnikov is a reactionary himself, and an inclination towards reactionary thought and scapegoating permeates his entire project. He reveals those very same impulses and inclinations that were put into action under Bolshevik thought police/Trotskyite repression and under Nazi repression.

    Someone above (Joe) mentioned Harry’s Place as being the right place for Strelnikov to write for — that’s about right.

  41. Joe – I notice you haven’t responded to my question above asking how you think I am “winding people up”. I think I can safely conclude from this that you aren’t actually interested in a sensible discussion and just wish to pursue your own gripes here.

    Chris – thanks for your comments on my DIJ piece. There are a few people contributing to WMTN and obviously they will all have their own strengths and knowledge. I’d personally love to see some material there on NSBM and other genres and I know that Strelnikov is receptive to contributions that add to the debate. Personally I don’t have the time or inclination to research black metal properly but there must be people out there who have more of an affinity to it than me who could contribute. I hope they do.

    More generally:

    I can’t comment on the running of the site because I’m not involved with it. What I do know is that posts I’ve made pointing out inaccuracies have been published. If people are trying to make pseudononymous comments on WMTN which are of the level of “his page is a place for those who want to see the likes of Test Dept and SPK and DAF as a threat to the world” then it’s hardly surprising they don’t get published.

    If people feel they have a vital contribution to make to the debate then the internet allows them to do this in thousands of ways.

    Here’s a website:

    Here’s another:

    Now go and start your own website…

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