Punk is Dead- Part 23


This is the International Times interview with the Clash from August 1977. The pic of Mick Jones from this and his quote “Whoever said PUNK IS DEAD is a cunt” was used as graphic by Crass for their ‘Punk is Dead’ on ‘Feeding the 5000’.

In the interview Mick asks IT about their February 77 headline “Punk is Dead”. Although Mark Perry of Sniffin Glue/ ATV did say “Punk died the day the Clash signed to CBS”, the IT headline was not based on Mark P’s quote – he hadn’t written it in Feb 77. He was a still a fan of the Clash then. In Sniffin Glue 9 (April/ May 77) he reviewed the first Clash album and called it “The most important album ever.”

Mark’s “the day punk died” quote [probably] came from the last Sniffin Glue, issue 12, September 77.

So it looks like the Crass song was part inspired by International Times. Although IT had been a sixties/ hippie counter culture mag, by 76/77 it had acquired a punk edge:

‘When the mode of the music changes’, IT said originally, ‘the walls of the city shake.’ Well the walls have been replaced, the sky lowers on sky rise buildings, and the mode of the music has settled into comfortable soft rock, such as The Eagles, slagged out and professional, with crystal clear production to ping in the foggy ears of hash smokers sitting comfortably, ‘laid back’. Everybody’s just as bored, scared and unoriginal as they ever were – perhaps more so.

Punk is trying to burn through it and all the slickness, but could be easily sabotaged by ‘Very punk, very Joan Sanderson’ type stuff. How can we ever change anything if we cultivate stupidity? – The transcendental moron, the punk moron, the fashionable moron, the cool moron. We could be offensive, but you wouldn’t give a shit when you’ve bought your nice new stereo…The only sign of life is an occasional exuberance shown in cruelty, and atoned for by sentimentality, all blanketed over by an incredible self-absorbed apathy which stops you from thinking, emotion or suicide. And you probably can’t even understand the words we’re using, let alone apply it to yourself, and as for ourselves this applies also, and all we ever need is a little love and understanding. But how do we get there, how well, and how often? What can one ever do? Going down the pub?”

Apart from playing their first gig at the Huntley Street squat -which was London’s largest squat in 1977-one of Crass first gigs was at ‘festival’ in Covent Garden. Thanks to some ace detective work by Tony Puppy, who spotted a reference to ‘Cras’ in the IT archives, it looks as if this was the James Street squat where IT had their offices…and where Tony himself later lived. [Tony has also found info on the Demolition Decorators who were based at James Street.]

In ‘The Story of Crass’ (page 83) Penny R. said that Andy Palmer was ‘vaguely involved’ with International Times and [allegedly] ‘pilfered a guitar from the IT offices’.

What is emerging out of the IT archives is another strand to the London punk/ pre-punk counter culture cross over, one in which Crass are more entangled than the image of them ‘isolated’ out in Epping would suggest. Even with the main stream of punk there is untold / half-told story. I have just checked, but can’t see any mention of IT in Jon Savage’s ‘England’s Dreaming’ – yet if you go through the back issues for the period, punk is there. IT was like a big circulation fanzine, but one which was selling mainly to people from the pre-punk counter culture and exposing them to a version of punk as [see IT editorial above] a renewal/ reformation of the counter culture.

Certainly it had that impact on me as a reader. If it was being read by [future members of] Crass in a similar way, it may have influenced Crass particular construction of punk.

AL Puppy

(insertion of IT snippet showing ‘Cras’ and more IT/James Street published links can be seen in the Puppy photo album under Print Material and International Times folder HERE

56 comments
  1. joly
    joly
    August 7, 2009 at 1:39 am

    ‘When the mode of the music changes’, IT said originally, ‘the walls of the city shake.’ is a quote from The Fugs.

    As far as Mark P goes I do believe he made the ‘punk died’ in late Jan 77 – the movie ‘Westway to the World’ specifies Jan 25 1977.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_The_Clash/List_of_related_articles#Westway_to_the_World

    It’s impossible to say what exactly inspired Nigel Cook to do the headline (he doesn’t seem to be around these days). The way I remember it at the time it was a joke on those jumping on the rapidly accelerating bandwagon rather than a derious indictment.

    Apart from that it’s well known that Crass had deep roots in the UK counterculture and so would naturally have been readers of IT.

    What’s interesting, in perspective, is that, early in the 70’s, particularly as economic degradations hit, the counterculture divided into two tendencies. One was to go rural to communes, aquarian ideals – another was urban, and more anarchist. In the early part of the decade the former was fashionable and the associated prog-rock had international success, until tables were turned with the advent of punk. While many of the young punks had maybe never seen a copy of IT, many of them likely knew squatter communities, not to mention the Pink Fairies & Hawkwind, bands who had established a DIY tradition. Perhaps Crass – having roots in that former group – became born-again in the latter – hence the evangelistic fervour!

  2. luggy
    luggy
    August 7, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Who was it who claimed punk died when Patrik Fitzgerald signed for Polydor?

  3. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 7, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    On his myspace site (18 November 2006 http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=57300118 ), Patrik says

    i was sold on by small wonder (in part) to polydor records and released a vinyl lp ‘grubby stories’ (half acoustic and half electric). at this point, people started saying that punk had now officially died (because i’d signed with polydor) and my musical career became part custard.

    the grubby stories album wordsheet almost caused a strike at the factory in walthamstow (half amile up the road from where i lived) because there were swear words on the album. people obviously didn’t swear in real life. i promoted the grubby stories album with a different group from the one which was on the album, playing very few of the songs from the album and did not take polydor’s advice on most things, as i had no real awareness of (or interest in) playing the music industry game. polydor dumped me soon after.

  4. Tony Puppy
    Tony Puppy
    August 10, 2009 at 11:22 pm

    The ‘Cras’ mention is in IT, Vol 4, issue 12, page 20 – December 1978. It has now been added as an image to this post.

    In a piece about the Demolition Decorators. It’s either an early Crass gig, or a secret gig by The Cars – take your pick.

    Interestingly, re Andy Palmer’s quote about Heathcote Williams, Heathcote is also listed as having played at the squat. Maybe on the same night as the Cars.

    See more International Times/James street links in the photobucket link above.

  5. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 11, 2009 at 9:12 am

    It is pretty unlikely to be The Cars playing in a squat 77/78. But here is a bit more background from interviews with Steve Ignorant and Charlie (Hayward) of This Heat.

    Steve Ignorant: We actually played [at the Roxy] twice.  The one that ended up being stopped was I think  maybe the or 5th gig we done. The first one we did was the squatters festival, that was in Huntley (?) Street in London. I think the second one might have been at the Roxy and that one went off alright ands we were called Crass then. That’s when I met a lot of the Deptford punks, Charlie who played in a experimental band called This Heat. I used to hang around with that lot a lot. The third might have been when Crass played at Covent Garden, they had a Festival there as well because it was being built at the time. But Pen couldn’t do it for some reason, cant remember why, so Charlie from This Heat stood in for him. Some bloke filmed it on a video and showed a bit to me, so somewhere someone’s got some of footage of Crass without Penny Rimbaud. The disastrous Roxy one was the fourth or fifth gig. 
    http://www.punk77.co.uk/anarcho_punk/steve_ignorant_interview_2007.htm

    Charles Hayward on punk : “We started playing gigs and in those days we were all living on the fringe. Gareth and I lived in squats, and Bullen was renting but living in this horrible place. We all had no money at all. So we started doing these early gigs and then we read about the Clash. We knew there was a single coming out and we read about them having this lyric, “No More Beatles, No More Stones”. But then we heard the song and it sounded like ‘Johnny B. Goode’! Which is what the Pistols sounded like too. The first time I heard Alternative TV, though, I could hear a situation where people were riding this chaotic system. Partly because of their incompetence, partly because they were more ambitious musically than they had allowed themselves time to be able to be, technically. Alternative TV had this song ‘Alternative to NATO’ – I heard it live and I thought it was fantastic. It was almost a political treatise on having a viable alternative to NATO. It was expecting the world to change overnight, demanding the world NOW. Even if it didn’t make particular sense, its sheer fuck-offness was just so compelling. For us, hearing that song was like the first time we heard Archie Shepp. It immediately echoed Dada for me. Even its incompetence and its moronic-ness was part of that whole Dada thing. Anyway, some of these punk kids started coming to our gigs. We got to know CRASS. One of their girlfriends lived down the road from our squat. I got to know Steve Ignorant and all that CRASS lot. We’d go to their gigs and they’d come see us. At that point I was squatting in Depford.”
    http://thequietus.com/articles/01122-this-heat-interviewed-by-simon-reynolds-an-outtake-from-totally-wired

  6. Nic
    Nic
    August 11, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Charles Hayward: “…we read about the Clash. We knew there was a single coming out and we read about them having this lyric, “No More Beatles, No More Stones”. But then we heard the song and it sounded like ‘Johnny B. Goode’! Which is what the Pistols sounded like too.”
    🙂

  7. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 11, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    So Crass is dead. And so is Southern Records. [See Nic’s Penny link above]. To summarise – Penny had been working on re-mastering/ digitising / re-mixing the complete works of Crass. The plan was to re-release in cd format plus (for live recordings, out-takes etc) set up a Crass download site.

    One aim was to use income from sales to re-finance the Southern Record label which was facing bankruptcy.

    But Penny had not kept former members of Crass informed about the re-mastering/re-mixing etc. In particular, Pete Wright. Pete had previously strongly objected to a performance by members of Crass in 2002. Pete vehemently opposed the re-mixed re-issue plan.

    The plan now seems to have created a major split, with Andy Palmer also now opposing Penny’s plans. Southern have also now closed down, with the loss of ten jobs.

    Crass music will still be available on vinyl, but there is (at present) no prospect of the digitally re-mastered sound of Crass being heard.

    “when the kids had killed the man I had to break up the band”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a_YQXFs7Ts

  8. Nic
    Nic
    August 12, 2009 at 9:53 am

    I suppose it all goes to show that the image that many people had of Crass as a unified entity was not necessarily the reality (despite the ‘public face’ of the group), something that George B’s book certainly highlighted…
    It seems (with a little reading between the lines) that the ‘re-issue’ program has been the final element in an deepseated and ongoing clash of personalities between different members of the band, partly based on decisions related to the band (the setting up of their own label, the continuing use of the Crass name, the alterations to the records, the issues around Dial House) and partly based on personality clashes (the references to certain members of the group have a dominant presence, at least in the eyes of other members)…In a sense, both areas are interesting because of the questions they raise…

    In all fairness, Pete Wright (and – if the currently available texts are correct – Andy Palmer, Joy de Vivre and Phil Free) haven’t expressed their position ‘in public’, so the flow of information may be (perhaps) a little one-sided at present…

  9. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 12, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    http://www.southern.com/southern/band/PENNY/ is 8146 words long. I tried to pick out what seemed the key points from Penny’s very lengthy text.

    I did so wearing my (anarcho-)punk/ counterculture historian’s hat since the history of Crass/Southern is central/essential to any understanding of the lived history of the (anarcho-) punk/ counterculture.

    I was wrong. This story is not (yet) part of history. Or to be more precise, it only(?) is from Penny’s point of view/ his text – punk (as Crass/ Southern) is now dead. I think this quote about ‘baking’ the orginal tapes from Penny’s text gets to the heart of the problem:

    “Once in the studio, the first task was to stabilise the by now fragile master tapes by literally ‘baking’ them in a purpose-built oven, thereby making them playable to digital format. This was a job that had long-needed doing and as we were working on one (‘Ten Notes’) it seemed to myself and Harvey Birrell (Southern’s extraordinarily skilled and patient engineer) that it was worth baking and then digitalising all of the Crass tapes. This in itself proved to be an enormously time-consuming undertaking, baking, copying and then cataloguing the entire archive, listening to hours upon hours of out-takes, studio chit-chat, unreleased live recordings and general tape ephemera. It was a long trip down memory lane which, although necessary, I could quite happily have done without.”

    “Cataloguing an entire archive” … words which say “It is over, its finished.”

    However, even within Penny’s text, it is clear that others who were/are just as involved in the Crass/ Southern project strongly disagree.

    Perhaps Penny was having a Shelley moment. “Look upon my works ye Mighty and despair…”

    OZYMANDIAS

    I met a traveller from an antique land
    Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
    And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    “My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

  10. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 14, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    Joly said – What’s interesting, in perspective, is that, early in the 70’s, particularly as economic degradations hit, the counterculture divided into two tendencies. One was to go rural to communes, aquarian ideals – another was urban, and more anarchist. In the early part of the decade the former was fashionable and the associated prog-rock had international success, until tables were turned with the advent of punk. While many of the young punks had maybe never seen a copy of IT, many of them likely knew squatter communities, not to mention the Pink Fairies & Hawkwind, bands who had established a DIY tradition. Perhaps Crass – having roots in that former group – became born-again in the latter – hence the evangelistic fervour!

    Crass’ General Bacardi seems to be about this.

    Alternative values were a fucking con
    They never really meant it when they said “Get It on”
    They really meant “Mine, that’s mine” don’t you see?
    They stamped on our head so that they could be free
    They formed little groups, like rich men’s ghettoes
    Tending their goats and organic tomatoes
    While the world was fucked by fascist regimes
    They talked of windmills and psychedelic dreams

    But… see https://www.killyourpetpuppy.co.uk/news/?p=569 and
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/10561828/Radical-Technology
    for a different view of ‘windmills and psychedelic dreams’ from Undercurrents magazine and the book ’Radical Technology’.

    I keep thinking about these attempts -partly provoked by the 1974 oil crisis which followed the Yom Kippur Egypt/Israel war in 1973- to create an alternative society whenever I read arguments about global warming. The idea then was to reduce dependency on fossil fuels. If it had worked then, we would not now be faced with the threat of climate change. If it had worked then, we would now be living in a DIY world.

    Now it looks like we [mainstream society] have wasted 35 years so that adapting to a low carbon/ sustainable/ renewable energy economy and society will be much harder.

  11. Sam
    Sam
    August 15, 2009 at 2:08 am

    “Alternative values were a fucking con
    They never really meant it when they said “Get It on”
    They really meant “Mine, that’s mine” don’t you see?
    They stamped on our head so that they could be free
    They formed little groups, like rich men’s ghettoes
    Tending their goats and organic tomatoes
    While the world was fucked by fascist regimes
    They talked of windmills and psychedelic dreams”

    I’m not that conversant with Crass’s lyrics but isn’t ‘They’ a mainstay of their’s?

  12. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 15, 2009 at 7:06 am

    Yeah. As they would say.

  13. Tony Puppy
    Tony Puppy
    August 15, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Do THEY owe us a living?

    All this early Crass live stuff has made me read through the relevant pages of George Berger’s book, and I had to laugh yet again at where this seminal line came from:

    “Do they owe the chicken whose neck they chopped for dinner a living? Do They owe me a living?”

    Do we owe Dicky Beau and his poem ‘The Window’ our thanks? Of course we fucking do.

    (page 85)

  14. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 15, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    I wonder if Crass’ “They” were related to the Clash’s “They”‘ in Career Opportunities (offering the office and the shop) or The Pistol’s in “EMI” where “They” thought that the lads were faking it…

    Though I reckon the best punk “They” are Stiff Little Fingers ones, the three “They say…s” on Alternative Ulster, especially the last one “They say…you will never be free.”. A classic THEY…

    Or maybe its the “They said…s” of Complete Control?

  15. Sam
    Sam
    August 15, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    The Pistols were more of an ‘I’ band, lyrically. ‘I’m a lazy sod’, ‘I am an antichrist’, ‘I don’t want a holiday in the sun’, ‘I’m on a submarine mission for you baby’ etc… but could be inclusive; ‘We’re so pretty’. X Ray Spex we’re also an ‘I’ band (to the enth degree). Joking aside, this choice of lyric put across a lot. The big, bad ‘They’ is a staple of the ‘political’ punk bands, SLF and the Clash included.

    The Jam were very inclusive; “What’s the point of saying destroy? We want a new life for everywhere”, “Why do we try to hide our past, by pulling down houses and building carparks?”, “I think we’ve lost our direction, I think we’ve lost sight of the goals we should be working for”, “Come see the tyrants panic, see their crumbling empires fall, then tell ’em we don’t fight for fools ‘cos love is in our hearts”.

    Of course if my 18 year-old self read this he’d tell me to fuck off.

  16. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 15, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    I share a house with an 18 year old, a 19 year old and a 21 year old. Two of them spend most of the time playing World of Warcraft…and no doubt the other would if he could. They (ha!) don’t spend much time deconstructing punk songs.

    But can political bands be identified by their use of “They”?

    What about The Pop Group? [Does quick skim through a few PG songs here
    http://www.wedigdixon.com/public_html/pop_group/lyrics.php ]
    … a few They’s, but a lot more we, your, yours, ours and I’s.

    HMMM… “For how much longer will we tolerate mass murder”… how would Crass have phrased that?

  17. Sam
    Sam
    August 15, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    True but I think the Jam were political.

  18. John No Last Name
    John No Last Name
    August 16, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Cheers for posting that Pop Group site link Al, nice one!!

  19. shammyleather
    shammyleather
    August 16, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    I think it’s a bit late now for Penny to stake his claim for what lyrics he wrote. Though ‘royalties’ if that is the route to go down now, should be split equally to all .

  20. John No Last Name
    John No Last Name
    August 16, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    with all due respect Shammy, unless you were actually in the band or involved with the writing process, this isn’t really your place to have an opinion. Someone from outside the creative core of a band really has as much right to an say on how they divide up their assets as you do to decide what kind of furniture they choose and how they arrange it.

  21. Nic
    Nic
    August 17, 2009 at 8:47 am

    Surely someone can have an opinion on anything? If shammy wants to express his opinion, where’s the problem?

  22. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 17, 2009 at 10:51 am

    I see the Penny/etc situation as being like a messy divorce. To follow the analogy, KYPP is in the unfortunate position of being part of the extended family.

  23. shammyleather
    shammyleather
    August 17, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    John no last name ok then why is penny moaning his lot and posting it. I have as much right as anyone to express my opinion , or can i not say their music was shit because i wasn’t involved in composing it so because of that i shouldn’t have a opinion on it. And i’m being polite about your comment.

  24. shammyleather
    shammyleather
    August 17, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Alistairliv – have just followed your link and it reminds me of the Sex Pistols with Dave Goodman and all the problems that entwined between copy rights of demos, royalties,etc and Maclaren court case and John Lydon which he documents well in his excellent book “Rotten”.

  25. John No Last Name
    John No Last Name
    August 17, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    Of course you and anyone else can have an opinion on anything you want and of course you can say Crass’ music was shit. I really don’t give a toss about Crass or their publishing splits or their bickering. I also wasn’t there when they wrote their songs and have no idea who did what though it really shouldn’t be a matter for public debate. It’s pretty lame that Penny made it public.

    What I was commenting on was that to me it’s strange that people who were not in the room when the songs were being hashed out to feel that they can state how the work should be divided up. Sure you can have an opinion, but without actually being there…

    The obvious difference between this and say the Sex Pistols royalties is that Never Mind the Bollocks actually sold an excess of a million copies, still gets played on radio stations around the world (at least where I live it does) and still has bands covering the songs. Crass sold their records for cost or sometimes below cost received virtually no airplay back in the day and I’m sure receive even less now. I seriously doubt this catalog is worth very much to be honest.

    Shammy sorry if I offended you, I actually didn’t mean to.

  26. Carl
    Carl
    August 18, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Opinions…..well, heres mine…Crass was as boring as buggery way back then…and its of even less interest and relevance now,

    In fact, can Penguin move this site back into the sunshine and put some Brigandage, Blood & Roses or Flowers up…so we can all dance in the sunshine..rather than mull about whos’ shafting who !

  27. Nic
    Nic
    August 18, 2009 at 9:22 am

    Fair play Carl: however, a single thread (which – it has to be said – you don’t actually have to visit or read) doesn’t really constitute a move away from the “sunshine” (whatever that is)…

    Another opinion: Brigandage were beyond dull on a musical level and completely lacking in relevance then and now…
    It doesn’t contribute much to the discussion, but there it is anyway…

    The interesting thing (for me, at least) about “who is shafting who” is not a prurient interest in the personal interactions between certain people: rather, it’s about notions of ownership, of how creativity is represented, of how the ‘private’ and ‘public’ interract…All of which are relevant to wider discussion around notions of music in general, radical politics, and so on…

    I don’t see a discrepancy between dancing in the sunshine and having a discussion: they seem to sit together quite nicely…

  28. Carl
    Carl
    August 18, 2009 at 9:57 am

    You are of course right, Nic and I should stop being a sarcy arse !!.

    I shall do what I did 25 years ago and keep away from anything to do with “Crass” and the” holier than thou “attitude that follows them

    I shall exit from this thread, and go and listen to Brigandage !!

    Toodle Pip

  29. alistairliv
    alistairliv • Post Author •
    August 18, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Too slow…I was going to suggest Carl had a look at this Crass inspired discussion on the Guardian’s website. It was only a month ago and shows that Crass have come to symbolise/ represent creative resistance to the Thatcher/Reagan era.

    If the idealistic legacy of that era is about to end in bitterness -especially if the Colin Jerwood aspect comes into play – the cynics will have a field day. At the moment though, it is all still in slow motion.

    Meanwhile here is the first part of John Robb’s Guardian piece. The clip of Jeremy Ratter meeting John Lennon is surreal – at end of clip, 2.45 onwards.

    “There’s a great YouTube clip of a young and mod-like Penny Rimbaud, the eventual prime mover behind Crass, meeting an equally young John Lennon [ see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSqh0rP3bm0 ]
    on Ready Steady Go in 1964. It’s a key moment because, in many ways, Crass took Lennon’s (occasional) idealism and ran with it further than any other group. Between 1977 and 1984, Crass released a series of records that challenged the status quo and defined the meaning of the words “rock revolution”. No group has come close to their fierce idealism. Let’s face it, no other group could be bothered to put up with the constant police harassment or the poverty.

    Crass were the missing link between counterculture hippies and punk’s angry rhetoric. The fact they got so big with no radio play and music so uncompromising is testament not just to their communication skills, but also to their generation’s willingness to experiment.

    The band released a series of records that spliced art-school (in the best possible way), avant-garde collage with white-heat, punk-rock anger. When Crass got mad, they got really mad, and they were ranting and raving at the UK during a mean and miserable time, when Labour buckled and Thatcher took over.

    The music of Crass can only properly be understood in this context – the decaying nation, state brutality, the miners’ strike, the Falklands war, and the death of 60s idealism. Sadly, we’re living through similar times now. Are we too cynical to create an answer like Crass did?”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2009/jul/08/crass-punk-band-anarchy

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