Split from Scottish punk thread – a question from Sean about The Roxy Club in Covent Garden, London.
These photos were taken in 1977 at CBGB’s New York by 1/ Godlis and 2/ Steph Chernikowski – not sure of the exact dates but looks like the Crass stencils were put on by the band (or associates) themselves. Ceetah Chrome in the wash basin shot. Gee Voucher was living in NYC until around 1978 I think, maybe it was her stencil work!
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sean
February 23, 2008 at 2:38 pmRE roxy,weds 27 august 77,audition night,…..stormtrooper…..was this an early crass incarnation?Penny has said that they were going to use that name at one point…..anyone know/care?
sean
February 23, 2008 at 4:19 pmI know they played as crass there about a month later…..maybe didnt go down well as stormtroopers so went back as crass to get themselves banned.
As a side note,much has been said on various threads about whether crass were “good” live… I considered that the “music” was a device of secondary importance to the lyrics across.Well,at that time anyway,you wouldnt of stood and listened to 45 mins of venomous political diatribe (that came later with the “ranter” poets).I found them shocking (initially),forceful,jarring,moving and eventually,sadly,boring.I dont think any kind of comparison can me made with seeing a band like the clash.Im not really expressing myself very well and not getting my point across too well….
And,sod it,Im on the wrong thread,AGAIN.I give up
gerard • Post Author •
February 23, 2008 at 4:29 pmI’ve no idea about the answer to this but I can ask Steve next time I see him… unless someone knows of course. Is there a list of gigs at the Roxy somewhere then?
Wildebeest
February 23, 2008 at 6:46 pmYou’re going to ask Steve if Crass was “sadly, boring”? I’m impressed!
gerard • Post Author •
February 23, 2008 at 6:48 pm🙂
sean
February 23, 2008 at 8:47 pmhttp://www.detour-records.co.uk/ROXY%20CLUB.htm
gerard,link to roxy club bookings/gigs,I cant take credit for it tho’
sean
February 23, 2008 at 8:57 pmand I dont think crass was ever designed to compete with the likes of the clash,they were,I think,a multi media assualt on the senses to force a message across,not there to be enjoyed as such.
If we were talking hymns,crass would be one of those drone-y methodist ones and the clash would be a rousing,uplifting one like jerusalem.
wrong thread again but Im past caring now.
Wonder if they dressed up like stormtroopers?Now that WOULD be funny
Nic
February 24, 2008 at 10:59 amWhen I look at both the music of and ‘career trajectory’ of The Clash, I see
a ‘Rock ‘n’ Roll band’ operating within an extended tradition (which included Bo Diddley, The Who and the Rolling Stones) which produced music designed primarily for entertainment and escapism, where lyrical content appears as an afterthought…
In the case of Crass, although they were insipired by Punk (and primarily by The Clash – hence their rage at the Clash), they seem to develop more as a ‘Post Punk’ band in terms of musical composition (particularly from Stations of the Crass’ onwards). In terms of their content, they seem to be more in the tradition of Folk Music – of music made to reflect and comment upon lives lived which would place them into a wider tradition of ‘Protest Music’ as exemplified by Pete Seeger – music which exists to reflect lives and to express hopes…
I don’t think Crass were intended to ‘compete’ with The Clash either: The Clash had dreams of being rockstars just like the rockstars they looked up to (which is why they had to commit patricide and ‘kill’ their forebears in songs like ‘1977’), whereas Crass developed very quickly into a group in the ‘Protest Music’ tradition informed by the developments of Conceptual and Performance Art from the late 1960’s and early 1970’s…
2 very different approaches – and 2 approaches that ARE at odds with each other if we look at their underpinning philosophies…
The crux of this argument of ‘Clash vs Crass’ is a debate on the nature, meaning and purpose of music which is played out in the positions adopted by the 2 groups…
I also think we may be listening to a different band…
For me, the most boring Crass records are the more ‘Punk’ records (such as ‘Feeding…’ 12″ and ‘Big A Little A’)…Their other work (particularly from ‘Penis Envy’ onwards) is much more interesting and exciting: a heavy emphasis on poly-rhythms, on unusual tempos and keys, on experimentation, on a contrast between spiked stabs of guitar and an almost enigmatic blend of fluidity/rigidity in the rhythm section…
Thinking about what everyone has said in these threads, I downloaded all of The Clash’s albums up to ‘Sandinista’, and still didn’t really feel most of it…’Sandinista’ still stood out as the most interesting LP…
I always ‘enjoyed’ Crass because I wanted something real, something ‘true’, something uplifting that spoke to me rather than just another band peddling their dreams of living like Keith Richards which is something I didn’t and don’t relate to…
I found their concerts inspiring and invigorating – and I never felt the ‘pressure’ of the ‘Anarcho Punk’ scene that people in London felt (and I do think that this IS an issue related largely to London, and to London at a particular period in time – it didn’t happen in many of the ‘provinces’)…
gerard
February 24, 2008 at 1:03 pmfascinating stuff as always nic, but if clash were committing patricide in ‘1977’, weren’t crass doing the same in system / white punks on hope?
steve for one always loved the clash (despite singing penny’s aforementioned words). penny was not the whole of crass. rhetoric and reality; not black and white.
what DID happen in the provinces? anything that history will remember? (now there’s a gauntlet!)
sean
February 24, 2008 at 1:21 pmAll this is very well,and I do realise that its ME thats taken this off topic (as usual) its not answering the important questions…….is there anything new (well,very old really) that I can take the piss out of steve for should I ever meet him again (unlikely) and should he remember me (extremely unlikely)?
I keep having these visions of crudely fashioned stormtrooper outfits…….
gerard
February 24, 2008 at 6:24 pm“(which included Bo Diddley, The Who and the Rolling Stones) which produced music designed primarily for entertainment and escapism, where lyrical content appears as an afterthought…”
just read through this again and i’m afraid i can’t let this slip through the net – you really believe that rock n roll was one of thatchers sub-domains?
the who’s lyrics an afterthought? won’t get fooled again?
i see the stones as (good songs but…) fakes, agree with you there.
but the who? come on! outside!
Chris
February 24, 2008 at 6:57 pmGERARD: fascinating stuff as always nic, but if clash were committing patricide in ‘1977′, weren’t crass doing the same in system / white punks on hope?
I’d say most definately and consciously. In a way that drew a line and defined a ‘ground zero’ – as i think they said; “if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”.
Nuzz
February 24, 2008 at 8:03 pmClash V’s Crass, the (mass)debate just keeps going, will there be a climax in sight? Neither bands are exempt from criticsism, both bring out a passion in people, that shows how important they both were. Both bands created a mythology, wether they liked it or not, that with the passing of time and endless revisionism becomes more aparent with each book, article that’s written about them. The importance of both bands cannot be denied. If Crass didn’t want to be judged as a rock’n’roll band, they they should have put down their guitars and just stuck with the literature. The Clash never pretended to be anything other than what they were or what they became. Crass on the other hand… well after reading The Story Of Crass I felt I’d been cheated. At the time in the provinces I believed in the puritanical stance they portrayed and then to find out that all the time Steve would rather be shagging groupies, drinking lager and snorting speed than talking about anarchy, well…..,but still the two most important bands in my life. Right thats it, I’ve come……………………… to the end of my say, but wasn’t it the MC5 that said you’re either part of the solution or part of the problem; another revolutionary band with a few cracks in their make up, but who made bloody good music, had something to say and influenced/inspired people.
gerard
February 25, 2008 at 9:38 pmno, crass didn’t play the roxy as stormtrooper apparently
Nic
February 26, 2008 at 10:16 amGood detective work, Inspector Gerard…
It probably wasn’t the Stormtrooper who released the ‘I’m A Mess’single (complete with badge as worn by Sid Vicious) either as they were effectively kaput by 1976…
sean
February 26, 2008 at 11:15 amthank you gerard,and well done,excellent work,ever thought of setting up a la philip marlow,jim rockford?
On the other hand,its a shame,I had concocted this vision of penny and pete happily strutting around in badly botched SS outfits with andy and steve being really embaressed and humiliated by pennys insisitence that this was the only way to make a splash entry on the music scene.
Too much time,too little to do I spose.
tonyb
April 16, 2008 at 11:51 amCrass were brilliant live before summer 79. Unlike any other punk / post punk related band.
like being faced with a firing squad.
yes i saw Clash an all that in 77 too.
Crass got sloppy later on.
anyone noticed the similarity between London Calling and Stations?
Stylistically and content wise.
Both doubles with alot of diverse content. Both sold cheaper than ‘normal’ records.
they get closer as time goes by.
nothing wrong with getting something out of both.
trouble with anything rass related is people want cake and eat it.
A)”Crass too dogmatic”
B)”yeah but they walked it and talked it”
A)”yeah but blah blah ivory towers blah blah hippies blah blah etc etc”
B)”But you like slaughter and the dogs they said FA”
A)”They never meant to say anything”
This type of drivel is tiresome.
Without Crass inspiration most would have nothing between their ears.
They just woke us the fuck up. Thats it.
Stewart
May 30, 2008 at 1:18 amHmmmm, well I think you can blow this out of all proportion – ahem! At the time, and I’m talking Feeding of the 5,000, Crass summed up the mostly inarticulate anger and rage felt by any punk with a braincell at the grey and drab drudgery of existing then, and I know for a fact helped politicise many, many people. We all sang along – then we began to think a bit deeper, and some of us found we didn’t actually AGREE with all they were singing/shouting about. But the important thing is, they helped define WHAT we were thinking about, whether we agreed with them or not. At least we were THINKING, and independent thought cannot be imprisoned… or, erm, something.
What I find REALLY sad, though, is that of all the posts I have read on this site I have found no mention really of the Poison Girls – who, in my opinion, musically and lyrically, were by far the better band. Their album Hex is a classic, and live they were mesmerising – I always had a good time at a Poison Girls gig. And Vi Subversa wasn’t just a woman singer, she was (or at least appeared to my teenage self to be) a middle-agedish woman singer – who else was her equal at that time anywhere in Britain???? Who else would have had the guts and the vision and the verve to do it???? Vi and the rest of the band – I salute you!
Nic
May 30, 2008 at 10:54 amPoison Girls have been mentioned Stewart – there is a thread somewhere (with some studio outtakes from around the time of the ‘Chappaquidick Bridge’ album) and they get sporadic mentions elsewhere on the site…
Stewart
May 30, 2008 at 11:46 amExcellent! How the hell do I find that thread?!?! :0 :0 :0
Nic
May 30, 2008 at 11:52 amThere is a ‘Search’ function on the main Downloads page, Stewart (Scroll down and look to the right of the page: you can type in the ‘Search’ box)…
but, to save you time:
https://www.killyourpetpuppy.co.uk/news/?s=poison+girls
🙂
alistairliv
May 30, 2008 at 11:53 amStewart – there is a ‘Search’ box here – top right hand, just under “Nothing is true, Everything is Permitted” cassette pic – which should help.
Stewart
May 30, 2008 at 1:08 pmOooo, thanx you two! I really must go and do something else apart from look at this site VERY SOON…
Stewart
May 30, 2008 at 1:50 pmOK… what am I doing wrong?!?! I’m not very tech savvy, though I usually do ok lol, but I’ve tried to download the Posion Girls live at Conway Hall files and although they’ll open and play on my computer they seem to just disappear after that… :O I tried searching for them with the ‘Search’ function on Windows XP and they’re not there! Any ideas anyone or am I just being a fool?!?! (not unusual, I have to say…)
Ian S
May 30, 2008 at 2:12 pmRight click then select ‘Save Target As . . .’ from the little drop-down menu that appears.
Stewart
May 30, 2008 at 2:42 pmHey! It works! That’s where your youth comes in handy Ian, lol – thankyou! 🙂
Brendan
May 7, 2023 at 4:06 pm15 years after the last comment in this thread… The Cheetah Chrome pic was likely taken between May 4-7, 1978. He’s wearing the Arturo Vega shirt sold at the benefit for Dead Boys drummer Johnny Blitz who was nearly stabbed to death a week earlier.