![\"\"](\"http:\/\/i192.photobucket.com\/albums\/z149\/pengy1966\/img256_zpse854a5be.jpg\")
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For the last two or three days several kindly folks have reminded me of Alternative TV.<\/p>\n
I have uploaded a fair chunk of Alternative TV material onto KYPP already over the years, as well as just about all the material that was released and available on both the vinyl and cassette formats that Mark Perry was involved with after he consigned the band name Alternative TV to the annals of punk history. Bands like The Good Missionaries, The Reflections, Door And The Window are all featured heavily on KYPP. Go and have a peek via the search function if you are interested in looking into and hearing those bands mentioned.<\/p>\n
Five years ago in 2008, I placed up a post of the two versions of the debut 7\u2033 single by Alternative TV. That original post may be viewed HERE<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n I have re-recorded (at 320 kBit\/s) all four sides of those two versions of the classic debut single tonight so to improve the download and listening experience. As I was doing that I decided to record all the other singles that were released on Deptford Fun City records up to the debut \u2018solo\u2019 7\u2033 record, also released on Deptford Fun City records, credited to Mark Perry.<\/p>\n There is another reason why I thought of recording the whole catalogue of singles released on Deptford Fun City records. I came across today one of the most wonderful interviews that I have read via the internet or indeed on the old fashioned paper format!<\/p>\n The interview was taken off the punkygibbon.co.uk blog. It is light hearted, easy to read, a whole lot of fun and importantly goes beyond \u2018Sniffin Glue\u2019 and the summer of 1977 to reach as far as the free festival years with Here And Now, Street Level studios\u2026 Even The Astronauts are mentioned in Mark Perry\u2019s wonderfully colourful reminisces!<\/p>\n Thank you in advance to the writer of the piece, whom I assume is the owner of the punkygibbon blog. Hope you do not mind the snatch.<\/p>\n This post on KYPP is all about those words on the punkygibbon blog, I wanted to celebrate those words with a half decent soundtrack. From \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019 to \u2018Lost In Room\u2019 including everything in between.<\/p>\n How Much Longer<\/a><\/p>\n You Bastard<\/a><\/p>\n I bumped into Mark Perry whilst out in London on a shopping trip. I\u2019d bought another aeroplane, and he was coming out of a gentleman\u2019s outfitters with a new wig. I had a minidisc recorder on me, so I started hassling him for an interview. He looked at me, saw how piteous a creature I was, and agreed to do it. We chatted for several hours, had some coffee and a sarnie, threw a bun at Melvyn Bragg on the South Bank, and went to the Tate Modern and chatted about art like the brainy bastards we are. (Mark\u2019s lawyers have asked me to point out that he doesn\u2019t wear a wig. Anymore.) What follows is an edited transcription (i.e. I\u2019ve ignored the salutations and done away with most of my comments). I\u2019ve decided that some of the stuff was too personal to put into print, and some of it strays quite some considerable way from what most people would call \u201cinteresting\u201d \u2013 we discussed the merits of our sandwiches at one point, a topic I should imagine won\u2019t float many peoples\u2019 boats. Mark was a great interviewee: animated and honest, no subject was taboo. He was writing his autobiography at the time and he thought it would help him with that, too. He looks and thinks just like he always has done, and talks in a strong Lahdndan accent, pronouncing \u201cbus\u201d as \u201cbas\u201d, \u201cdown\u201d as \u201cdahn\u201d, \u201cfuck\u201d as \u201cfack\u201d, and \u201csee ya\u201d as \u201cso are you gonna get me me bas fare \u2018ome, then ya cunt?\u201d. (He didn\u2019t really say that.) When I asked if he\u2019d like a transcript before publication, he said that wasn\u2019t necessary, he stood by everything he said, and I could even make up stuff as well if his answers weren\u2019t good enough! What a beezer bloke! I\u2019ve tried to preserve as much of his vernacular as possible, yaknowhattimean, to give you an idea of the wonderful way he talks. And he likes to talk. He\u2019s got a very busy, hyperactive brain, which is why his quotes often seem disjointed. He talks in very long sentences and goes off at tangents, but that\u2019s part of what makes him so charming. Anyway, I begin by asking him how much longer will people wear Nazi armbands and dye their hair, and how he got into punk. His response is this:<\/strong><\/p>\n I literally come out of school, at whatever time, yeah, get straight on the number one bus. The number one bus was great, was right outside our school and it would take us right to Charing Cross Road, right into Soho, basically. So you\u2019d take the old school tie off, ya know, [and] within about three-quarters an hour after leaving school we were lookin\u2019 at records. This is like in the week, ya know. It was like, ya know, that was our thing, we were into music, people like me, Danny Baker, and our other friend, Steve Micalef \u2013 who [as Steve Mick] ended up \u2018elpin\u2019 with Sniffin\u2019 Glue as well. And there was this little gang of us, there was about four or five of us, yaknowhattimean, the ones that were into music. And that was great, yaknowhattimean?<\/p>\n I\u2019ve always liked London for that. There\u2019s no excuse in London, it\u2019s when you hear this thing about, ya know, ya hear this over-sort-of-liberal type goin\u2019 \u201cPoor kids of today, haven\u2019t got this and haven\u2019t got that\u201d. DO SUMMAT! All right, I mean, you can understand someone moaning if they live in some small town and they haven\u2019t got anything BUT YER IN LONDON FOR GAWD\u2019S SAKE! There\u2019s no excuse, yaknowhattimean? Get on a bus, yaknowhattimean, ya know. We used to do that, yaknowhattimean?, during the holidays we used to do that, we used to get those Red Rovers, ya know, get a Red Rover all week, be all over the place. Me mam\u2019d say, \u201cWhere you bin today\u201d<\/p>\n I\u2019d say \u201cWe went to West London\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cWhere was it?\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cOh Portobello Road\u201d<\/p>\n Ya know, you go to Portabello Road when you\u2019re about 12-13, an\u2019 that, look around.<\/p>\n (He really does talk like this, I\u2019m not making it up.)<\/strong><\/p>\n One day I tried to find out where Eno lived. I was a big Roxy fan an\u2019 it said, I dunno where, the NME or something, it said what street he lived in so I went up Portobello Road this particular Saturday and tried to find Eno\u2019s house. I end up finding his house and waiting outside his door for about two hours, knocked at the door, and there was no sign of him, so then I got a Wimpy and went home, like, but, ha ha.<\/p>\n What I\u2019m saying is when I was young I used London in that way an\u2019 I guess I wouldn\u2019t have found out about punk if it hadn\u2019t been for that, really cos it was obviously it was being uptown a lot and knowing a few record shops uptown is when I first, y\u2019know read about the Ramones and started meetin\u2019 people like in, as I said they used a have a stall, Rock On, a stall in Soho, Newport Court. There was Roger [Carroll] and Ted [Armstrong] [who also ran Chiswick Records \u2013 Gibbon] and they used to have a shop, but they owned the whole thing. But the guys who run the stall in, er, Soho were Stan Brennan and a guy called Phil [Gaston]. Stan and Phil, they later on formed Soho Records that put out Nipple Erectors records. I knew Roger and Ted later but first of all I knew the guys from Soho. I didn\u2019t go to Camden much in those days, I later on did, yaknowhattimean, but they were the guys, I said \u201cLook, I\u2019ve done this fanzine, y\u2019know\u201d. I sorta asked about a punk fanzine, they said there isn\u2019t a punk fanzine and I said \u201cI\u2019ve done this fanzine\u201d and they were the first ones who took it, yaknowhattimean, and put it on sale for me.<\/p>\n In conversation I said about, \u201cIs there any magazine?\u201d and they said \u201cthere\u2019s no punk magazine, you\u2019ll have to do one yourself\u201d in general conversation, it wasn\u2019t exactly \u201cdo one yourself\u201d, \u201cyes I will boss!\u201d. But yeah they did, sort of, like, y\u2019know, they probably said as a joke, y\u2019know, \u201cYou\u2019ll have do one yourself, then, won\u2019t you, mate!?\u201d Sniffin\u2019 Glue. And that was it, they were really encouraging. I knew them cos I was a bit adventurous, yaknowhattimean, going up there and havin\u2019 a look \u2019round London.<\/p>\n How Much Longer (Alternative Version)<\/a><\/p>\n You Bastard (Alternative Version)<\/a><\/p>\n So what records had you bought from them? If any.<\/strong><\/p>\n I don\u2019t think I got the first Ramones album from them. There was this other shop we used to go in that used to sell import records, and it was just around the corner from there, I forget where it is now, I used to buy all my import stuff in there. Like cos in those days, I don\u2019t think it happens now, but an album would always come out a month in America before it did here. I got the Ramones album from there. I used to buy things like, y\u2019know, the Count Bishops off them and things like that, y\u2019know, the early indie stuff and that, y\u2019know, early Stiff stuff and that type of thing. I used to come out with a lot of obscure stuff, they used to get, like \u201cWho Put The Bomp!\u201d Records, people like Flamin\u2019 Groovies and that, bands like that y\u2019know. They was just a general second hand record store, all sorts, not just punk, all sorts, old soul, reggae, blues, all sorts, sixties stuff, yaknowhattimean. A place to hang out and chat really, yaknowhattimean and just talk about music. Little stall more than a shop. They had a good little scene there, y\u2019know? Later on, late in \u201976, that\u2019s when The Jam played a gig there, Soho Market, yeah, and they got the electricity from the stall, y\u2019know. It was a cool little shop that, and I think later on those guys \u2013 Phil and Stan \u2013 they left Rock On they formed Rocks Off Records and they did the Soho Records label and bought out the first Nipple Erectors.<\/p>\n Did you have any involvement with that?<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s not get personal here! What you mean? Nips and that? What happened is that, I used to be a great \u2013 I mean it\u2019s going back again \u2013 but what is the first person I met in the punk scene, who became a friend, is Shane MacGowan. I met him actually cos I went to the Ramones at the Roundhouse, that first, like, classic, legendary Ramones gig over here where they were supporting Flamin\u2019 Groovies. I went there with my girlfriend, Louise, at the time and I met up with Shane there. I didn\u2019t know him, we met him, he was this crazy bloke. We met him in a bar, said hello, started talking. I always knew what he was doing and that, yaknowhattimean, but by the time he was putting out records I think I had already done The Image Has Cracked and that. I remember there was this interview I saw him do once, it was with this Jammin\u2019 fanzine \u2013 the great Jammin\u2019 magazine, which was a great mag \u2013 and he said, \u201cI saw Mark P the other day and he\u2019d grown his hair, he looked like an hippie\u201d, or something. And I probably said \u201cYeah, it\u2019s about time you changed, you\u2019re not still into this punk rock rubbish are you?\u201d I probably said something like that to him.<\/p>\n Where in 1976 everyone was very tight, you know, cos it was like a very small scene, as people started signing up it just grew. I mean we were playing places like the Rainbow suddenly, and touring, and it was a bit\u2026it had become the music scene; all of us gang of whatevers, gang of nutters, yaknowhattimean, into the Ramones, the new music scene, I mean a year and a bit later we were at all the ligs, there was no difference there, that\u2019s where things like The Clash doesn\u2019t sit in with me, to me The Clash thing was , like a separate thing. I mean by mid-\u201977 I had a gold card for the Speakeasy Club in the West End, and the Speakeasy Club was, like, the rock establishment club, and you\u2019d be in the Speakeasy sitting there with Mick Jones, Frankie n Miller, Keith Moon, Robert Plant. We weren\u2019t trying to spit at them, we liked being part of the rock scene, yaknowhattimean? Enjoyed it. It like was a lig, we didn\u2019t refuse to go to ligs, if we\u2019d been so fuckin\u2019 against rock music we\u2019d have gone \u201cOh no, we ain\u2019t going to no lig, that\u2019s wrong! Free drinks? That\u2019s wrong with the music business!\u201d We went \u201cYEAH! Backstage, I\u2019m coming, y\u2019know!\u201d<\/p>\n I mean, I used to take advantage of the Sniffin\u2019 Glue thing. I remember the time I met Paul McCartney, I met a Beatle! and I was tellin\u2019 people about it for weeks afterwards, yaknowhattimean, cos what happened with me, again in early \u201977, cos of Sniffin\u2019 Glue I used to get asked to write for the magazines cos I could have been!I guess if I worked at it I could have been a proper music biz writer, y\u2019know, cos I got offers to write for Sounds and Melody Maker. I did one review for Melody Maker and I reviewed Iggy Pop, cos Iggy Pop was doin\u2019 his tour at the time with David Bowie on keyboards, I think it was at \u2018The Idiot\u2019 tour, around that period. And I slagged him off. I mean I liked the gig but I thought Iggy was too poncey and out of touch so I said something like, they put it as a headline \u201cWake up Iggy, it\u2019s 1977\u201d. I did that, but the other one I did was for Sounds and they said they wanted me to review Wings at Wembley. I didn\u2019t get it at the time, I must have been so stupid, cos what they wanted was me to slag it off, they wanted the \u201ctop punk writer\u201d to have a go at the Beatles, y\u2019know, have a go at Macca? Anyway, I go to this gig and it was fuckin\u2019 brilliant! It was Wings and I love Wings, yaknowhattimean? And then they\u2019d do a few Beatles songs \u2013 \u2018Get Back\u2019, \u2018Hey Jude\u2019 \u2013 it was great, a great evening, yeah? And afterwards we went backstage and got to meet Macca! A year earlier I\u2019m, like, nobody, an\u2019 a year later I\u2019m meeting Paul McCartney. Anyway, I got \u2018ome, wrote the review, I wrote a good review an\u2019 Sounds wouldn\u2019t print it! What was all that about? Cos they wanted me to slag \u2018im off.<\/p>\n I think I\u2019ve been a bit naive really, I\u2019ve always expected more of people, yaknowhattimean, and when they just try to censor you basically, or they\u2019re only trying to use ya. It\u2019s like in 1977 you\u2019d get asked to do TV shows, and all these cliches they try to come out with. It\u2019s a bit like the Gundy thing, the Pistols, innit, they\u2019re trying to prompt them to say something nasty about Beethoven or something really corny. And the interesting thing about that was that they did the same with the Beatles. There\u2019s an old Beatles interview \u2013 I thought it was brilliant \u2013 and they said to Lennon, \u201cWhat d\u2019ya think of Beethoven?\u201d People forget that The Beatles in \u201963 were outrageous and they did the same sort of conversation. I mean, they didn\u2019t swear. Trying to provoke some sort of naughty reaction, it\u2019s pathetic.<\/p>\n Life After Life<\/a><\/p>\n Life After Dub<\/a><\/p>\n Someone wanted to interview you in a building site, didn\u2019t they?<\/strong><\/p>\n That was a show someone was doing, a Birmingham show, and they invited us up to this show and I forget who this fuckin\u2019 prat was called \u2013 I \u2018ated this woman who did it, she was like a journalist for The Evening Standard and she was puttin\u2019 this show together \u2013 and I went up there with me, Danny [Baker] and this girl I was knockin\u2019 around with at the time, I forget her name now, but anyway we went up there and there was other people up there, like Don Letts was up there, Ari Upp was up there, and, yeah, they was like, there\u2019s this old house, and they\u2019d rented this house for a couple of days for the show and it was like a dump, and they\u2019d done it up like a squat, they\u2019d thrown a mattress on the floor, and I was like, \u201cWe\u2019re not sittin\u2019 in \u2018ere, we\u2019ll go in the garden or something\u201d. There was this lovely little rose garden and we sat in the rose garden. We refused to do it, it was nonsense. It\u2019s cliches, straight away they\u2019re trying to make the audience have an opinion about you before you\u2019ve even opened your mouth, like so they can go, \u201cLook at them, look at the place they\u2019re in\u201d. They\u2019ll probably try an\u2019 make out it\u2019s your flat: \u201cWe interviewed Mark in his \u2018ome, in his squat\u201d. There\u2019s me livin\u2019 with me mum and dad in our nice cozy little council flat!<\/p>\n What about the pub rock thing, the Count Bishops?<\/strong><\/p>\n It wasn\u2019t that all rock bands had turned into dinosaurs, but with the pub rock thing it seem to bring rock back to basics. They were all quite exciting bands and we used to go down to clubs like the Nashville, Hope & Anchor, the Marquee, and it was a really small scene there. And I think without that I don\u2019t think punk would have happened, yaknowhattimean? I think they were very limited in what they\u2019d do cos they were R&B based there was only so far they could go and that was it, so they weren\u2019t very adventurous musically, but I had some great nights, I mean particularly with Dr Feelgood, superb band live, Eddie & The Hot Rods \u2018n that, really exciting bands, y\u2019know. A lot of the first punk rock gigs were supporting the so-called pub rock bands, I mean, the Pistols supported Eddie & the Hot Rods, didn\u2019t they?<\/p>\n The first time I saw The Damned they were supporting a band called Salt, one of these pub rock\/R&B bands that everyone\u2019s forgotten, and it was at the Nashville. Well it was quite weird because The Damned went on and did their thing and most people went, \u201cOh, what\u2019s this bloody lot?\u201d and then at the end old Rat Scabies smashed his drum kit up, and they had this big row of course, the blues band accused them of trying to upstage them. It wasn\u2019t very difficult to upstage a band like \u201cchuggy-chuggy\u201d, \u201cI woke up this morning\u201d with an harmonica!.<\/p>\n There\u2019s always been a rivalry, I mean, punk was like that. But without pub, punk wouldn\u2019t have had anywhere to play. It was ready, it was primed, cos London at the time, 76, was primed for something to come along, yaknowhattimean? I mean, the venues were there, there were loads of gigs going on. That was a really good year for rock music, in London.<\/p>\n I\u2019d been seeing the Feelgoods from 1975. I always say Dr Feelgood were a pub band, although they got quite big, I guess cos they were the first \u2018n that, and signed to UA and put out some albums with them. And I used to be into a band called the Kursaal Flyers as well, used to love them. You know our album, Strange Kicks? Well Kursaal Flyers used to have a set like that, they used to have a reggae song, a blues song. And they\u2019d do a rock song, they\u2019d do theme songs. Y\u2019know, for the reggae song Paul Shuttleworth, he used to put a rasta wig on, but it worked. Basically they were a really good band, they used to come on like the Barron Knights of the 70s or something, but it did work because they were such bloody great musicians. Will Birch, superb drummer, really good songwriters, I mean, Will used to write most of their stuff. Good band they were.<\/p>\n But their first LP was the pits.<\/strong><\/p>\n But a lot of those bands made albums like that, I mean, like the Kilburns, in the studio they were crap, personally, I think they just didn\u2019t work. I saw them live only once and I don\u2019t remember much about it, I must admit. I\u2019m a person \u2013 say it in hushed tones \u2013 I\u2019ve never liked Ian Dury. I\u2019ve sort of given him the odd nod but I\u2019ve just found after a while it\u2019s so corny, all that. I think New Boots And Panties!! sort of works. I had a row with him once. I said something stupid and he threatened to beat me up or something, in the Roxy.<\/p>\n But you put New Boots And Panties!! in you Top Ten in the Sniffin\u2019 Glue book!<\/strong><\/p>\n My girlfriend made me do it, \u2018cos he\u2019d just died that year, I think. It\u2019s not that I \u2018ate it, I just don\u2019t like it that much.<\/p>\n Once The Stranglers had a go at me cos I went into the dressing room at the Nashville and I had a Gorillas badge on. They said, \u201cWhat you wearing that for?\u201d and took me badge and kicked me out. Jean-Jacques Burnel was always trying to start fights with people. I think Rattus Norvegicus is a superb album. We used to play that to death: when we were first touring we only had a couple of cassettes in the car, in 1977. The Stranglers hated me, I think, but I liked them. If you look at it it is probably better than the first Clash album, cos, I mean if you look at the first Clash album, it\u2019s dreadfully under-produced, which you can understand at the time but [now I think] how can anyone like that album that didn\u2019t see \u2019em live at the time? If you saw The Clash live at the time then you could understand the album cos you can see it in the context of a live show. No wonder they didn\u2019t, from CBS\u2019 point of view, no wonder they didn\u2019t release it in America first of all, cos it wouldn\u2019t have made sense.<\/p>\n Life<\/a><\/p>\n Love Lies Limp<\/a><\/p>\n What was the Roxy like?<\/strong><\/p>\n The Roxy was always pretty good. I never saw anybody get booed at the Roxy. If people didn\u2019t like you they\u2019d just stand around looking bored. None of those bands had massive audiences bouncing around; even ATV! We supported Wayne County down there a couple of times. People were just staring at us.<\/p>\n There was this good bill, with The Adverts, Wayne County, ATV, Johnny Moped, at the Roundhouse. And I got so drunk. These Japanese people turned up, like \u201cWe big ATV fans\u201d \u2013 God knows how \u2013 and this was late 77 \u2013 and I got a bottle of whiskey and I think I only had about four swigs out of it but I was gone, yaknowhattimean, and I was all over the place, and Ray Stevenson was there taking some photographs. I picked up me scrapbooks the other day an\u2019 I looked through and there\u2019s a photo of me sitting there looking really drunk, and Wayne County\u2019s on my lap. So funny. And it\u2019s in NME and it\u2019s got a caption with Wayne saying, shall we talk about the record deal Mark? and me saying, \u201cNo Wayne, let\u2019s talk about the first thing that pops up\u201d. I remember at the time I was like, oh my god, what have they done!?<\/p>\n Cos we used to tour with Wayne County quite a lot and we used to have a right laugh, and seeing Wayne, as he was then, in these Northern Bed & Breakfasts, coming down to breakfast with his fuckin\u2019 curlers in, shriekin\u2019 out like. He was tough, he could really look after himself, but he always to turn it on a bit, very loud and shrieky. I was in New York last year, funny enough, and she was supposed to be deejaying for us, and when the promoter said \u2013 cos apparently she was looking forward to seeing me cos she hadn\u2019t seen us for years, and she was excited about deejaying for ATV \u2013 and when the promoter couldn\u2019t find the fifty dollars she wanted she didn\u2019t show up, so she couldn\u2019t have been that interested in meeting me again, just cos he could only pay \u2018er forty instead of fifty dollars.<\/p>\n You gave the Saints LP a bad review\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n At least the Ramones were funny, they had a sense of humour. The Saints were a little bit dull. I think the first single was incredible, but, again, it\u2019s like a lot of the punk stuff. I don\u2019t think The Lurkers ever made a good album, I don\u2019t think Eater ever made a good album, Buzzcocks I never thought made a good album, I hated all their albums. Badly produced, although they were probably the best singles band. Another Music In A Different Kitchen? That\u2019s got a terrible production, I \u2018ate it.<\/p>\n I love the production on that album, I think it\u2019s great<\/strong><\/p>\n But you\u2019re fackin\u2019 weird! I \u2018ate it. I don\u2019t like Never Mind The Bollocks, I think it\u2019s awfully over-produced: too many guitars, sounds like Thin Lizzy, and do we really want Thin Lizzy? And when you think of the influence that had, particularly on America, you just think, on things like Metallica and Guns N Roses, you think, \u201cIs that what we really wanted out of punk?\u201d<\/p>\n Action Time Vision<\/a><\/p>\n Another Coke<\/a><\/p>\n What about the three labels, Faulty Products etc?<\/strong><\/p>\n What happened was when Sniffin\u2019 Glue by early \u201977 had become the punk bible, if you like, main rag, I got introduced to Miles Copeland at a gig an\u2019 he wanted to know about punk, he wanted some kind of way to work with punk. Before that he\u2019d worked with some dreadful bands, and they were dreadful bands, people like the Climax Blues Band and Renaissance, and they were sort of prog and bluesy and pretty dull, yaknowhattimean, and he wanted to get into the new music. And obviously he spoke to me and he said to me, \u201cDo you want to run a label?\u201d and I was like, \u201cWow! Run a label?\u201d \u201cDo you wanna be A&R man for a record label? I make records and we wanna do some punk records\u201d, and he admitted \u2013 he was very honest \u2013 \u201cWe don\u2019t know anything about punk rock\u201d. So that was it. I formed Step Forward. At the time he was managing Squeeze and the idea we\u2019d had was that we\u2019d have a group of labels. I came up with the name Step Forward, Deptford Fun City was thought of, I think, by Glen [Tilbrook] out of Squeeze, and the idea of Illegal Records was that it was going to be Stewart Copeland\u2019s label. They were great. To me it was liking going up and up and up. Whereas to me Sniffin\u2019 Glue had got into a certain point of influence and say and my personal career, what I was doing, this was another opportunity to get involved with more stuff, because Miles Copeland had great facilities. He had like an office in West End so he had, like, the phones we could use, he had the faxes we could use, we had the printer. We basically moved Sniffin\u2019 Glue into there as well. He had a spare office. So it really changed the way we did Sniffin\u2019 Glue an\u2019 everything.<\/p>\n What happened with Deptford Fun City was they got bored with it. They did the first Squeeze record but they weren\u2019t really interested in doing labels, they signed up to A&M almost straight away, and so Deptford Fun City was kind of floating about. Stewart was more into the Illegal Records thing; he was into dabbling about with different things, and Stewart was very encouraging with the punk thing, he was very into it. It was a great scene, that was, it was all under the [name] Faulty Products, that was the headline we had. And it was great fun, it was a great atmosphere, that office. It was just people doing stuff they loved doing. And just upstairs from us, for the first couple of months anyway, was Glitterbest, the Sex Pistols\u2019 office, so we were always runnin\u2019 up an\u2019 down the stairs. Miles Copeland had the Pistols the gigs in Amsterdam. I remember when they got the test pressing of \u2018No Future\u2019, which later became \u2018God Save The Queen\u2019, I remember the lads saying, \u201cCome up and hear our new single\u201d and we all went upstairs and sat round listening to that. For me, personally, it was another way of me being creative. I wish I had done more with the label, really, but again it\u2019s down to me changing all the time, wanting to move forward all the time.<\/p>\n So why was ATV on DFC not Step Forward?<\/strong><\/p>\n I wanted to leave Step Forward as a label of bands that I liked rather than my own music. The reason we were on was because it was like available, and we were from Deptford. It fitted brilliant for us.<\/p>\n We had an office with like three rooms and there was this empty office next door, which was a right tip, it was just a shithole, y\u2019know, and he asked the landlord if we could have the office next door, but could we \u2018ave it on the cheap, like? And what we did is we run a cable outside the window, so we didn\u2019t even have electricity in this office, we run a cable from the office next door and that became the Sniffin\u2019 Glue offices. It was cool. We were doin\u2019 loads of graffiti an\u2019 that, we used to have some great times there cos when we did interviews we always did \u2019em up there. We did a Blondie interview up there that never got printed, we used to have \u2019em all up there, get a few beers in, right in the middle of Oxford Street.<\/p>\n We wanted to do The Adverts but then they got chatted up by Stiff and they did their first record with Stiff. Cos we were good friends with Tim and Gaye [we] really got on well with them. But of course then once I got my own band going I was spending so much time with that I had to stop doing Sniffin\u2019 Glue cos I was doin\u2019 the label and the band. It had lost the plot a bit, I think those last couple of issues ain\u2019t so good. Sniffin\u2019 Glue #11 was good cos we asked some other people to contribute to it, but Sniffin\u2019 Glue #12, I just don\u2019t think it was very good. It\u2019s awful. I \u2018ad the row with someone and I said what I said and they said, \u201cWell put in your piece\u201d so I did, and it was something that worked really well at the time. A few years ago Danny said, that piece you wrote was quite sad, it sounded like you were going to pieces, it sounded like you were having problems, yaknowhattimean. Danny described it as self-loathing. I think it was. With regards to Sniffin\u2019 Glue, it was the end. It never sold out, it didn\u2019t turn into a glossy magazine.<\/p>\n You never sold out, either!<\/strong><\/p>\n No, but I tried a couple of times but they didn\u2019t let me! We did a demo for EMI. If they\u2019d had signed us up, I woulda done it. Because what had happened, like what happened to a lot of people, I\u2019d done the demo, thought \u201cOh well, if we get a recording out of it!\u201d and if I\u2019d \u2018ve actually seen that contract the Mick Jones part of my brain would have gone: EMI, tours, y\u2019know, same label as the Beatles and Pistols, number one record. I think I woulda done it. And when they said we hated this I said, \u201cWe didn\u2019t wanna sign anyway\u201d. The lucky thing about me was that I knew that I could put records out, it wasn\u2019t the end. To some band in the sticks who didn\u2019t have the connections, they might have thought \u201cOh my God, that\u2019s our only chance\u201d. But with me I thought we\u2019ll go and make the records ourselves. Who knows what would\u2019ve happened then. We could have been like the Buzzcocks or something. Not a bad thing. But better. The Image Has Cracked would have still been The Image Has Cracked but the tracks might have been in a different order. There\u2019s no way that they\u2019d have let us start the album with \u2018Alternatives\u2019. It\u2019s good the way that it divides people.<\/p>\n The Force Is Blind<\/a><\/p>\n Lost In Room<\/a><\/p>\n Can we talk about some specific ATV records? \u201cLove Lies Limp\u201d, how did they come about?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019 was one of the first lyrics I wrote, cos early on, when we first thought of the band!it was early \u201977 and when I was gonna put together a band I wrote all these lyrics for Alex to put music to, and most of \u2019em ended up on this thing called The Industrial Sessions we did. They were all the outtakes, all the stuff we didn\u2019t end up recording properly. I used to have this thing at the time cos what happened is I knocked around with Caroline Coon, and I tell you what, she ate me an\u2019 spat me out, honestly, she was so experienced and she was like my second girlfriend or something. Well actually It was like one of these things, when you\u2019re young and going out with an older person, especially like Caroline, who was a very very determined woman, it\u2019s like \u201cOh I think I love you, and are you my girlfriend?\u201d and she goes, \u201cFuck off, I\u2019m seeing three other people as well\u201d, and you\u2019re like, \u201cno, no\u201d So I was a bit like that, I was a bit infatuated with Caroline and I think that a lot of people were. She ended up going out with Paul Simonon for a while, just after me. I really looked up to her, she was really creative, and we worked together, an\u2019 she really was encouraging on the Sniffin\u2019 Glue thing, but anyway that was when the subject first come up about my sexuality.<\/p>\n I used to hate it at the time, I don\u2019t know why cos I\u2019m a lot more relaxed about it now, but I used to hate the emphasis put on sex all the time, yaknowhattimean, and it was one of the things wrong with rock music. I wanted to write a song about that sort of thing, that it didn\u2019t really matter. You can\u2019t get it up? You can\u2019t get it up, it don\u2019t make you any less of a person, not that I had any real problem with that, I just thought, if you don\u2019t wanna do it, why should ya? So I just thought it was an antidote to all these, y\u2019know, rock and roll let\u2019s-have-sex sort of songs.<\/p>\n We didn\u2019t actually record it as a single cos that was one of the songs we did for EMI as a demo. We did four songs, we did \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019, \u2018How Much Longer\u2019, \u2018You Bastard\u2019 and \u2018Life\u2019 as as demo. We went in an\u2019 did these songs, and \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019 was about sex and had swearing in it, I think I swore in \u2018How Much Longer\u2019 at the end \u2013 \u201cYou all don\u2019t fucking care\u201d \u2013 \u2018You Bastard\u2019 \u2013 well, \u201cYou bastard\u201d, right? \u2013 and \u2018Life\u2019 was the only one that was \u201cacceptable\u201d. EMI basically said \u201cLook, very interesting, but we think it\u2019s too political, it\u2019s too controversial\u201d \u2013 that\u2019s what they said about our music, it was quite funny \u2013 but the good thing about the EMI demo was that it was like a free recording for us, so we had these tracks. I dunno I had the idea or someone else had the idea that when it came to the last issue of Sniffin\u2019 Glue, cos by that time we\u2019d recorded a different version of \u2018How Much Longer\u2019\/\u2019You Bastard\u2019 for the first single but we hadn\u2019t put it out yet, and just thought it\u2019d be a nice introduction to the band. The concept idea that you end the fanzine so one thing ends of mine, and the band starts. So that\u2019s why. But I don\u2019t know why we chose that particular song for the flexidisc. It was good to do something different. Someone also mentioned that cos it was a flexi, cos it was on a floppy disc, y\u2019know \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019? I didn\u2019t think of that, someone else come up with that. Someone said that in the NME, they said \u201cThis is not a conventional record, this is \u2018Love Lies Limp\u2019 on floppy, and they made that connection. I think it was a bit of an inspired idea doing that flexidisc.<\/p>\n I think we spent all our profits on it, which didn\u2019t amount to much, but we had load of \u2019em, cos what happened was we had got 20,000 made of the bloody things. In fact, Harry Murlowski<\/span>, who was at the time he was doing more of the business side of the fanzine and that, he was at his mum\u2019s the other day, well last year or something, and he was looking in the loft and he found a box of \u2018LLL\u2019 flexidiscs, about fifty of \u2019em. I think we made more than we actually had fanzines to put \u2019em on, y\u2019know? But it was a good idea, I am proud of that, y\u2019know. It\u2019s weird, it\u2019s like a real Deptford reggae, like it\u2019s reggae, but it\u2019s not quite reggae, it\u2019s very quite jazzy, it\u2019s a weird one that. We still play that in our set, it\u2019s one of our most popular songs. It\u2019s a funny song, a bit of a comedy song, havin\u2019 a larf.<\/p>\n \u201cSplitting In Two\u201d is the song that\u2019s lasted longest in our set, it\u2019s about me and I\u2019m still like that, I think, y\u2019know, questioning stuff all the time.<\/p>\n So what about the second single, why two versions?<\/strong><\/p>\n What happened was, we did the EMI demo, and we thought that was pretty cool, more rough and ready, and then we re-recorded it for the proper single but after living with the first single for a little bit, not long, I just thought it was over-produced, and I liked the old version better. What we did, when we did a re-press we just thought we\u2019d put that other version out, the EMI session one, so that\u2019s what we did. When we did The Image Has Cracked CD we put both versions on. They are quite different. The EMI version is much more what we sounded like live, there\u2019s no overdubs, it\u2019s just as it is, y\u2019know.<\/p>\n My favourite record I\u2019ve ever made is, my favourite one track I\u2019ve ever made, or record even, A-Side and B-Side, is \u201cThe Force Is Blind\u201d. I\u2019m really proud of that, I don\u2019t think we ever bettered that. You know what I\u2019m saying of the poetry and jazz idea, I just think that\u2019s where it really comes together on that, yaknowhattimean?<\/p>\n Who\u2019s the woman on that?<\/strong><\/p>\n Anno? She\u2019s the singer in Here & Now, the Gong offshoot. She was a French girl. Later on I ended up, we got together; we got a son, me and Anno. Anno was the lead singer in Here & Now and we really hit it off, cos we toured with them, we toured with Here & Now, the What You See Is What You Are tour. Me and Anno really hit it off and later on we got together, we were together for quite a few years, really. We got a son, he\u2019s sixteen years now, Sebastian, and he lives with his mum in France, cos she\u2019s French. We split up, it didn\u2019t work out, y\u2019know. Great kid, like. I like that record cos that is, it\u2019s one of those records you hear and you don\u2019t know what era it comes from, it just happens, it\u2019s just there, y\u2019know? That\u2019s to me what punk should be about, that type of thing, just experimental, yaknowhattimean, just being bold. And yet the other side is quite edgy, \u2018Lost In Room\u2019, more of a punky new wave thing, innit? I\u2019m really proud of that release, it\u2019s a really great record, that.<\/p>\n How was that recorded?<\/strong><\/p>\n What we did with that was I didn\u2019t tell the musicians at all what was gonna happen in the studio cos I used to play a lot of games, I used to play a hell of a lot of games with musicians in the band. I had the songs written. With \u2018Force is Blind\u2019 I had a bass line written and just the lyrics, and then \u2018Lost in Room\u2019 I had the chords and the lyrics, like. This sounds really pretentious but I used to say \u201cLook Dennis, you know when you play\u201d \u2013 I used to get them into the vibe of it \u2013 \u201cYou\u2019re all light, this is a festival, there\u2019s lots of free food about, y\u2019know, it\u2019s all cool, the kiddies are playing, it\u2019s a beautiful day and then, like, someone comes in to spoil it and smashes it up, yaknowhattimean, like the police\u201d or whatever, or it could be some other thing. Apart from the bass line everything\u2019s improvised; they\u2019d just do their thing. I was playing the drums on that, but I thought Anno did brilliantly on that, cos Anno had such a childlike voice and she did all these weird things, like she\u2019d do a note and then she\u2019d change it while she was singing it, she\u2019d sort of bend it, yaknowhattimean?<\/p>\n Was Anno ever in Gong?<\/strong><\/p>\n Gong became Planet Gong, by then it was Daevid Allen, and Here & Now were basically his backing band under this Planet Gong\/Mother Gong thing. When David Allen left and Here & Now kept on going. She did a bit of work with me, she did some of Snappy Turns; she played violin on that. I\u2019ll tell what she does sing on is \u2018Boy Eats Girl\u2019 for Peep Show, she was on that. But it was great, the Here & Now was really important for us. I mean, again, going back to \u201978, where everything was getting a bit samey and a bit stereotyped, y\u2019know, and The Clash were off on CBS and you had the Oi! thing was just starting, and the more sort of \u201cworking class\u201d punk thing was just getting going, and y\u2019know, I actually thought, \u201cWhere are we gonna go from here? What are we gonna do next, y\u2019know?\u201d And a couple of people from Here & Now actually approached me at a gig, it was Kif Kif who used to play drums and Anno turned up at a 100 Club gig and said \u201cLook, we\u2019re in this band, y\u2019know, we do these free tours, we do like these free gigs\u201d, and I was like \u201cFree gigs?\u201d and they said \u201cYeah, we just play around and we just get money from selling food and from havin\u2019 whip-rounds and I just thought, like, fuckin\u2019 you just can\u2019t get more punk than that, really, and that\u2019s why I got in there, and I got slagged off so much for that. \u201cWhat are you playin\u2019 with these hippies for?\u201d \u201cBut they\u2019re playing for nuthin\u2019, that\u2019s what WE should be doin\u2019. We shouldn\u2019t be playin\u2019, y\u2019know, shitty venues like the fuckin\u2019 Rainbow an\u2019 that\u201d. Well it\u2019s good to play \u2019em once, y\u2019know, so we could say we played the Rainbow \u2013 tick \u2013 but, y\u2019know, c\u2019mon, let\u2019s do something different, that\u2019s what punk\u2019s about. Again, when they were actually given a chance, a lot of punk bands wouldn\u2019t do things like that, yaknowhattimean? They wouldn\u2019t just get out there and play to the people, yaknowhattimean, unless they had the right haircuts or something. It\u2019s bollocks! That\u2019s what I hated about it, I got to loathe punk; by \u201979, I loathed it. It was just what it represented. To me it suddenly represented something I\u2019d loved so much and freed me as a person, y\u2019know, to become an artist and a creative person, it seemed to be wanting to put everything into a box and label everything suddenly. It was awful<\/p>\n And that Here & Now tour was a great eye-opener for me. I mean, they used to laugh at us, the Here & Now people cos we\u2019d go to these places like the Stonehenge festival and turn up in our van and we\u2019d go, \u201cRight, where do we sleep?\u201d And they\u2019d go \u201cHave you bought a tent?\u201d \u201cNo. Ain\u2019t we got B&B\u2019s?\u201d \u201cNo\u201d. It was so funny, so that was when we ended up sleeping in the bus, like, they used to have this big bus, sort of hippie bus. Of course you\u2019d get into it after a while. In the morning I\u2019d get up and say to Anno, \u201cWhere\u2019s the showers?\u201d and she went, \u201cShowers?!\u201d, rolling around the floor laughing at me. \u201cWhat ya mean?\u201d \u201cWe go to the local pub and use their toilets\u201d.<\/p>\n \u201cWhat? To have a wash? What about the toilets, then?\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cNo toilets, just go behind the bush and that\u201d. I dreaded it. It really showed me how bloody, y\u2019know, naive I was about the world cos people like Here & Now were out there doin\u2019 if for nuthin\u2019, yaknowhattimean. Everyone was huffin\u2019 an\u2019 puffin\u2019 about changing\u2019 things, an\u2019 being anti-establishment and they were anti-establishment, yaknowhattimean, without even trying, y\u2019know?<\/p>\n Mad it was, some of the gigs they did. I dunno what it\u2019s like nowadays but it was still then, and which fueled a lot of the reasons why I think that the 70s was great in the UK, was that there was great gigs in colleges and Uni\u2019s, weren\u2019t there?, and everywhere you\u2019d go you\u2019d play the college or the Uni, and they were great gigs cos it wasn\u2019t commercially driven. Y\u2019know, a lot of the Here & Now stuff were at Uni\u2019s, like Warwick, Stoke, we\u2019d go to Canterbury, play on a day like today [sunny], outside, fantastic gigs they were, really, really good. You\u2019d have a whip-around afterwards, and people\u2019d put you up and that and bring food, and people would say \u201cBloody hippies\u201d, but they were nice people.<\/p>\n [Later on that\u2019s what Crass did] they did the collective thing an\u2019 all that, basically, that was seen as a hippie thing to do, wasn\u2019t it, it was \u201cnoooo, we don\u2019t like hippies\u201d. We\u2019ve been told we\u2019re not supposed to like \u2018ippies. Kill a hippie or something. Y\u2019know, that\u2019s brainwashing, punk seems to brainwash people, y\u2019know. A shame, that is. I mean, after that tour, that\u2019s when I went to make Vibing, cos I\u2019d been talking to people with different ideas about how to make music, and all the opportunities were suddenly all there. Cos of that a lot of people probably thought , \u201cWhy\u2019d he have to go on that bloody tour?\u201d I mean, Miles Copeland \u2013 our manager \u2013 \u2018ated it. He\u2019s never been a breadhead, Miles, cos he comes from a rich family an\u2019 that \u2013 his father was head of the CIA an\u2019 all that, wasn\u2019t he, big American, rich family \u2013 but he don\u2019t like throwin\u2019 money away, yaknowhattimean, so when we said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re doin\u2019 this tour\u201d he said, \u201cRight, how much you getting, what\u2019s the deal?\u201d, we were going, \u201cOh, it\u2019s free\u201d.<\/p>\n \u201cYeah, but what\u2019s the deal?\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cNo, it\u2019s free, Miles, there\u2019s no!people come in for nuthin'\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cAnd how will we make money out of that?\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cIt\u2019s not about making money, Miles, we\u2019re out there!\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cHey, you guys, you tryin\u2019 to freak me out or something?!!\u201d<\/p>\n But it used to be funny with Miles, Miles liked it. When he went to the gigs he said, \u201cIt\u2019s a good scene\u201d<\/p>\n There was indie records before punk, of course there was, in the sense that there were records put out not by the big companies, but punk definitely! I mean what happened was that you had all these bands suddenly formed so people could get a bit of music and then it sort of died off a bit \u2013 the big labels had the bands they wanted, didn\u2019t they? \u2013 and suddenly there was a lot of bands thought, \u201cOh we\u2019d better start making records now\u201d. I mean, was it the Desperate Bicycles were one of the first ones? I remember Scritti Politti doing an early thing, and my mate I ended up working with like Door & The Window at NB Records. Rough Trade had started up by this time. That was a good scene that was, worthwhile, but again nothing to do with real punk. Punk helped that come in but musically it was a lot more diverse than punk ever was.<\/p>\n Here & Now started Fuck Off Records. Kif Kif from Here & Now started that. People like the Astronauts an\u2019 all that, The Door & The Window, who I was playing drums for, we were on that. Here & Now used to have a great scene over in, um, West London, that was their place \u2013 a place called Brownlea Road \u2013 and it was a great scene over there, a bit near where Rough Trade were based, off the Ladbroke Grove an\u2019all that, and they had all these squats an\u2019 that, y\u2019know. A bit of an eye-opener for me cos although I was into punk I\u2019d always had a very comfortable home life. I was an only child, very comfortable flat an\u2019 that, y\u2019know, I wasn\u2019t like a rough guttersnipey type yobbo, I was a very quiet child. They had a load of rehearsal space an\u2019 all that. Later on they started the Street Level studios. Grant Showbiz, he was the sound guy for Here & Now, an\u2019 he went on to produce like The Fall and later on worked with Billy Bragg, produced the Smiths for a little while. He did the Dragnet album for The Fall. I think The Fall were one of the only other bands to play \u2013 on our level \u2013 that actually played with Here & Now. A lot of the other bands just didn\u2019t wanna know.<\/p>\n Although Here & Now were interested in having punk bands play, let\u2019s face it, I think if Sham 69 had played , then you\u2019d have got all their audience along, and they\u2019d have just duffed up the \u2018ippies. It\u2019s like when Sham 69 played Reading, innit, they took over the stage an\u2019 all that. Just some fucking idiots.<\/p>\n By that time, late 78, the punk scene was just dead as far as I was concerned, cos you had all that lot going over that way, and the mob I was interested in, like Here & Now and the Pop Group \u2013 we toured with them quite a bit \u2013 people that actually thought about the music they were making, like the Fall. Rough Trade got a lot of bands like the Raincoats, we used to know them, Scritti Politti we used to play gigs with Scritti Politti. What was called by Record Collector once, \u201cavant-punk\u201d, which I quite like. Throbbing Gristle, people trying to do different stuff, Prag Vec, Essential Logic. I suppose people like Gang of Four, people like the Mekons.<\/p>\n He goes on about Kif Kif for a while, then his phone goes and we get hassled by yet another scrounger. I notice I\u2019ve been taping over the interview (the player is on a loop). So what was \u201clost\u201d? He moaned a bit about the panning the press gave the second ATV album, Vibing Up The Senile Man, and we talked about the third LP, Strange Kicks. \u2018There Goes My Date With Doug\u2019 was simply a song he\u2019d written based on an episode of the Brady Bunch, believe it or not.<\/strong><\/p>\n He could write a good pop song, could Alex Fergusson.<\/p>\n The Whole World Is Down On Me<\/a><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"http:\/\/i192.photobucket.com\/albums\/z149\/pengy1966\/img241_zpscf608aad.jpg\")
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